Modern, Ambitious Women Unsubscribing from Self-Doubt with Neha Ruch | AAPI Heritage Month and Maternal Mental Health Awareness Week
Thrive Spice Podcast | Season 2 Episode 7
In honor of Maternal Mental Health Awareness Week and AAPI Heritage Month, host Vanessa talks with Neha Ruch, Founder of Mother Untitled, about choosing yourself, unsubscribing from judgements and self-doubt, and finding growth and clarity. As modern, ambitious, Asian American women raising mixed-race families, Neha and Vanessa share their perspectives on nonlinear career journeys and deconstruct the narratives behind the “stay-at-home” vs. “working” moms debate. We discuss redefining success metrics, "having it all," and healing racial and intergenerational trauma. Neha shares her personal journey as an Indian-American mother navigating motherhood, entrepreneurship, and activism, and how she finds joy in purpose and passion. Plus: we nerd out over the best pasta in NYC, interior design, and the most valuable lessons that are NOT taught in business school.
About Vanessa Shiliwala (she/her): Vanessa is the Founder/CEO of Thrive Spice Media, a mental health podcast and leadership platform that seeks to amplify and empower AAPI leaders, creators, and changemakers. She is also an award-winning DEI advocate, speaker, senior marketing leader, mother, and NYU graduate. You can find her on instagram @thrivespice. To learn more about her Mental Health Masterclasses and Diversity & Inclusion leadership development workshops for AAPI, BIPOC, women, and LGBTQ+ ERGs and corporate groups, please go to https://www.thrivespicemedia.com.
Resources for Maternal Mental Health Week 2023:
Postpartum Support International - dedicated groups are available for South Asian and AAPI moms and birth parents
Research and Resources for AAPI Moms - Motherly
Thrive Spice episode on destigmatizing postpartum depression (PPD) with comedian Alyce Chan
Thrive Spice episode on pregnancy loss and adoption with author Lyn Liao Butler
Research report - AAPI women are at higher risk of PPD than White, Black or Hispanic women
Boss Mama Jama podcast episode - Postpartum Mental Health with Thrive Spice
#MMHWeek2023 #apahm #aapiheritagemonth #mentalhealthawarenessmonth #mentalhealthformoms #AsktheQuestionNY #Project62NY #maternalmhmatters
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Note: For accessibility purposes, this podcast episode was transcribed with the help of A.I. technology. There may be slight inaccuracies in transcription or punctuation.
Full Interview: Modern, Ambitious Women Unsubscribing from Self-Doubt with Neha Ruch of Mother Untitled
Hey everyone. It's Vanessa. Welcome to Thrive Spice, a podcast centered on the Asian American mental health experience while navigating career, family, wellness, and social empowerment. I'm your host Vanessa Tsang Shiliwala, a business leader and entrepreneur, mother of two, and award-winning AAPI and mental health advocate.
Join me as I invite diverse business and political leaders, entrepreneurs, and creators to sharing their mental health journeys, and practical advice on how they found their Thrive Spice: the joy that comes from finally owning our identity, power and worth. Please follow me @ThriveSpice on Instagram for videos and more mental health tips. The link is in the show notes. Lastly, don't forget to subscribe. All right, let's get ready to unpack some feelings and spill the tea.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Our guest today at Thrive Spice is Neha Ruch, the founder of Mother Untitled: a community, platform, and place for ambitious women leaning into family life. Thank you again for agreeing to be on Thrive Spice. I've been following your platform for maybe a year and a half now. And it's been really amazing to see your journey. So I'd love to share it with our listeners as well. Personally it resonated a lot with me as being someone who was also in that space that you like to call the pause, where I had kind of down shifted to focus on family life.
But as the same time also starting some entrepreneurial endeavors and leaning into that and figuring out - Okay, can I do both? Can I exist in a way that I'm not used to operating in? Because I went from being a full-time corporate professional in marketing in consumer, media and tech companies to being a stay-at-home mom. And that really triggered feelings of shame and embarrassment, actually, that I had to unpack in therapy and really think about - Well, why am I feeling this way? So I'd love to first, you know, take a step back and learn a bit more about you in your journey.
How did your transition going from corporate life into entrepreneurship, impact your own mental health and what prompted you to start Mother Untitled?
Neha Ruch: I love that you've been following along and you have personal resonance with this story. I think, you know what you describe is the pause, but also the gray area that I talk a lot about, which is that blurry space between stay at home and working mother. And I think it's so fluid and in some ways we're all still in it, no matter what juncture we're in. So to back up, I lived in Boston, I was in advertising. I spent about 10 years in advertising and brand work more, most recently running brand at a company called Solo, which was in the early stage tech space.
I'd gone to business school at Stanford before coming home to New York to start a family with my then new husband. And when I decided to downshift, I think I took a full pause. I had my son in 2016. I'd already been feeling just a lack of enthusiasm or excitement about my work situation.
I don't know what it would've felt like if it was different. So I was already feeling like I wanted something else. I wanted more purpose, more peace, more contentment. And when I had my son, though, I'm not gonna paint that like that early months of motherhood with rose colored lenses. I did find a lot of that, right?
The peace and the purpose and that I'd been looking for. And so for me, sort of slowing into that felt really good. And then I ended up shifting into consulting two days a week for a brand. So I was an in-house brand director and that worked, it sort of gave me a construct wherein I was working part-time and it was very boundried.
And then I was fully at home for the rest of the week. And during that phase of life, you and I both lived in Midtown in Gramercy and I was in Flatiron and I was meeting so many incredible women in our area that were in that same moment of recalibrating. They were ambitious, they were thoughtful, they had already had an average of 10 years of career experience to draw from. And they were making an empowered decision to say - You know what, I'm gonna shift into something more flexible, or I'm gonna take a full pause, or I've always wanted to tinker with something new and this is the time in my life to do it because I want to be able to have room for family life and to enjoy this.
And it was so different from the caricature of the stay at home mom that we've been fed. So when I graduated business school, the lean in movement was the rallying cry. And so, as I was approaching or navigating these early months of motherhood, that was still the dominant conversation in the media. And I think that conversation was so important because it helped elevate women in the workforce and empower women who felt committed at that moment to their careers to keep moving.
I did feel like what it did was it created a distancing effect where it left women who were choosing to focus on family life back in the 1970s with that old school character. Equally, you asked about mental health. I was actually feeling really clear on my own decision, but I was surrounded by a lot of questions and a lot of stigma around my choice.
So I know you and I both grew up in immigrant families, as my husband grew up in an immigrant family. And it was a generation of really hard working people. And who had worked really hard to afford us the luxuries there of education, in my case, secondary education, grad school, and there were a lot of questions around - Really, this is what you're gonna do?
Like aren't you gonna be bored? And so I think the biggest mental health obstacle for me was finding it within myself to not care what other people think, to not feel the need to make them understand. And to really tap into my inner confidence and trust that this was a moment in time that it was gonna lead me to what comes next.
And I think that trifecta of my own certainty in where I was in that personal work, I was doing combined with this incredible community of women in a same shared space and combined with the media and the lack of platforms really focusing on women in my stage of life. Led me to say - You know what, I wanna create that.
And that was the seeds for Mother Untitled, which I launched in 2017 as the first platform focused on empowering women during career pauses and shifts for family.
Vanessa Shiliwala: That's incredible. Thank you so much for sharing that journey. A lot of that deeply resonates with me because I had to unpack a lot of those feelings too, where either internalized or directly heard from others about, well, you have this very expensive education.
You've invested, you know, at that time it was like 12 - 13 years in this career working for these top fortune 500 and startup companies. And is this really the pinnacle where you step out of that? And I was clear about my decision like you, but I also felt moments of self doubt where I thought - Oh gosh, maybe they're right.
What am I doing here? I'm just like cleaning up like poop and pee all day, and making snacks and keeping track of feedings and all of that. And so it was really tough for me. And so I think it was really refreshing to see that kind of amplified in a way that it hadn't been before.
Neha Ruch: You know, and I think that that's the other part of it is it's not just the finding contentment or enjoying it, but it was for me, it was also the recognition that I think detaching, allowing myself to step away from the linear career track actually opened up so much personal growth and creativity for me.
And I think it was that idea that in making a change yes, for family life, because I felt drawn to it, I was actually allowing myself room to grow and explore and connect in ways that I just hadn't. And I think that is the part that is sometimes lost in the conversation. And that I really wanna emphasize through the work and Mother Untitled that it's not just about valuing ourselves and our work in the home, if we choose to focus there.
But it's also in recognizing in ourselves and allowing other people to recognize in us the continued growth and creativity that I do believe is possible in that chapter. And I think that helped me cross the threshold of self doubt was that, not just the trust in myself and the enjoyment of that moment, but it was the looking around and saying like - Wait a second, this isn't just a pause. I think it's gonna be a pivot. And I think that that was something I was experiencing in real time.
Vanessa Shiliwala: That's so powerful. I think that personal growth is something that I think is really hard to kind of fit in when we're on this more corporate track or something. That's a bit more linear minded.
And to your point it's often not linear and maybe it doesn't come from one source. So I think that's so liberating kind of retaking that ownership for ourselves in terms of, well maybe this is a time to prioritize personal growth, even though I'm actually prioritizing family. It's also an opportunity to, as you said, pivot. And I certainly faced a lot of similarities in my own journey where I decided, I also felt like there was always something missing, even though I'd achieved all these check marks of goals that I had wanted for myself.
And, you know, I was like, okay, director by 30, I got married, I have a house, I have a kid on the way. And then still there was just that sense of something missing. And I knew similarly I wanted to ground it in purpose and passion. And so, I knew it was like a very necessary break for myself, but I do think there were plenty of times where it's hard, frankly.
Being a mom has been the hardest job of my life. There are no true breaks. It's 24/7 and I think managing a household and your children, it was so much more than I'd ever realized. And then I also had read Lean In, and I also had very mixed feelings about it. I remember commenting to my husband at the time I was like, I don't know.
And I know there was a lot of praise, but also critique about it being not as inclusive in terms of class and privilege, kind of glossing over that factor. And I think the pandemic really shed a lot of light on that. And we saw that millions of women did leave the workforce during the pandemic, which really brought to light the gaps in childcare and the uneven distribution of housework and childcare at home and gender dynamics.
And for many, it was a very difficult decision, including myself when I became a stay at home mom, transitioning from corporate life into taking a one year sabbatical to care for my daughter. And for moms who have mixed feelings about being the primary parent or caretaker of their children, while down shifting in their careers, how would you recommend rebranding this season of our lives?
Neha Ruch: I think you bring up a couple great points and I wanna address the privilege piece pretty early on. Cause I think you brought it up in the context of Lean In, but I think it's relevant to really all choices in motherhood. Because I think, you know, I often say it's not a privilege to stay at home.
It's not a privilege to work out of the home. It's not a privilege to construct some version of in between. The privilege is really to get to choose. And so once you're choosing that is a very empowered place to be and a very exciting place to be. If it is not a choice, I think there's a real reconciliation of this is the now, and this applies to both.
If this is your choice or not your choice, if you find yourself in this moment, it's about right now, right? I think so often we have this black and white notion of a track and we have to keep forward moving on that track. And I think a great opportunity for all of us is to say - I'm making this choice for what works for myself or my family right now.
And I get to reevaluate in six months, one year, and it takes the pressure off of this fixed and finite view. I mentioned the gray area before, and this is also I think a huge opportunity for women right now. This idea that we have the average woman having a child is much older than the average woman from 30 years ago. Equally we have a highly educated group of women, women who have career experience out of the home prior to having children and all of this lends to an ability to be able to translate those skills in a flexible capacity.
And so I think the concept of downshifting and pausing doesn't have to be fixed and finite. It allows you, if we can say - You know what, I'm in the, in between right now. It takes the pressure off of those like, very black and white labels. It allows us the room to find other opportunities that might work better.
I would say to women who had to leave the workforce, not by choice, that there are opportunities out there in a flexible capacity that are worth exploring. I think that's one of the best parts about the stay at home motherhood, "in this century". And you have the opportunity to be able to volunteer, learn in master classes, find small businesses that you can contribute in a couple hours.
There's so many small businesses that are looking for talent in short term contract consulting capacities. All of this is to say the idea, the gift of being able to say - I give myself permission to focus on this right now and know that I entrust that I can reevaluate and shift my focus again down the line, is really important.
I think the clarity side is gained really by allowing yourself that mental exercise. And I recommend this to everyone really writing down and being crystal clear that for right now, I am focusing on X. I know I am trading off or I'm choosing not to focus on Y. Because there is a reconciliation of you can't have it all at the same time or an alternate view on that is you can have it all.
You just have to define what your all is and you get to define that over and over again. So I think that clarity exercise caveated with the just for right now, is really helpful for women in that stage.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I love that. And especially because I feel like part of that is kind of, unlearning what our traditional ideas about success and hustle were, whether it's title, salary status. Because we do change when we become parents and these things they have to be redefined for us all.
So I think it's a very necessary exercise to do, regardless of what you decide to do as a parent and how you spend your time. What do you wish you could have told your younger self or your inner child when it comes to mental health and having this growth mindset?
Neha Ruch: That I belong, that I have a place here and that I'm loved in my whole self and that I will keep growing, but in all my different versions I'll belong. And my differences make me wonderful.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I love that.
Neha Ruch: I think that that's something I hope my kids always have that I really struggled with for the first 18 years of my life.
Vanessa Shiliwala: You mentioned this sense of belonging and like healing your inner child.
And that's something that we explore a lot on this podcast, because I find that particularly for Asian Americans and children of immigrants, it's something that comes up again as parents when we're trying to heal our own inner child and figure out how to parent. So can you tell us a little bit more about what your experience was growing up, especially as a child of immigrants and how that affected your own journey?
Neha Ruch: So I would say that is the biggest work I've done in parenting. I think, there's no bigger catalyst for personal growth than children, right? Cause you're looking at your children and you wanna be the strongest version of yourself for them, but also to your point, and I think this is where you're going.
You don't wanna put your trauma on them. Because they're having their own experience 35 years later. And the world has moved on. So I grew up outside Boston. Some of my closest friends are still from that town. But it was an all white town and I was one of very few people of color.
I was Indian and I am Indian and it was a moment in time where Indian Americans were thought of as taking a lot of jobs. You know, the immigrant job conflict was heightened and it was a middle class town and that was the narrative. And I felt that, so I think in my early part of growing up, I immigrated to the country when I was three years old.
And for the first 10 years, I didn't feel a sense of bullying, but I did feel a sense of separateness. And I internalized that as feeling, you know, just different and it was at a time where, like, I always think about this example that would never happen now. My sixth grade teacher called me out in a presentation about volcanoes and she made me stop and talk about my accent and that I wasn't pronouncing the "V's" correctly.
That would never happen now, right? And I stayed up till midnight practicing V's. But that moment, like I remember exactly where I was and that sort of feeling of "other", it was so deeply embedded. And then when I was in high school, I think that I was so committed to unshackling myself from the stereotypes.
So I went in the opposite direction, sort of manufacturing an identity that wasn't true to who I was just to fit. And I made a lot of mistakes along the way in doing that, but it forced a moment of recognition at the end of high school that said - You know, this isn't me. And I ended up taking a year off between high school and college.
I deferred my acceptance to undergrad. The college was generous enough to say - Come when you're ready. And I ended up taking a year in traveling to India. I think that that year was so catalytic, not just because I was 18 years old traveling by myself, but it was this moment of putting myself intentionally in a situation where skin color now, and accent and heritage wasn't in question. And on all those levels, I belonged. So it let me actually explore: who am I really? And so when I came back into college, I had such a better sense of who that was. And then when I came to New York, once I was married, I married into a Jewish family in New York. That brought up a whole different set of adult belonging.
But for the sake of my kids, I really wanted to explore, okay, what does it mean? What of all of that trauma is still relevant? And how can I connect to my worth and my value and all of that again, in such a way that it's unshakeable. And I would add now watching my kids go through this experience ... my son goes to a very progressive school in New York. As part of their Pre-K N-K identity projects.
They paint, do a full body self portrait, and they're asked to paint their exact skin color. When I heard about this assignment, I felt like a pit in my stomach, except I watched him take it on from such a like objective. He was like, yeah, I mix some brown and a little bit of peach and a little bit of grey.
And it was so unladen by past stories. And I thought that it was beautiful that this generation, at least this one classroom is growing up believing like, well everyone comes in different shades and we all have our different histories. And I think, I hope we can retain that. I hope that.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah, that is beautiful. I think I'm seeing this kind of cyclical trend actually, where you did take that gap year to focus on going to India and really digging into who you were and what mattered to you and how you define yourself. And here you are not only doing it again, but helping others and empowering others in that same stop in their journey.
And I think that's why I find the story so compelling because I see that maybe, you know, it's not necessarily that this was the "new Neha" that popped up after motherhood. Like she was always there. So that's what's really beautiful about that journey. So I thank you for sharing that. And to your point about bringing our own racial trauma to the table.
I also, you know, my husband's Indian and we have half Indian, half Chinese Taiwanese kids. And I am sensitive to, if remarks are made about their skin color, whether it's too dark or too light or their eye shape or their body hair, even. So just all of these subjects, I am sensitive about.
But I realize that they are not sensitive about it. And maybe it's because they're so young. I mean, they haven't quite internalized all the messaging subliminally around that, but I do think it is really empowering to see that they are free from that racial trauma.
And it's my job as a parent to help keep them as free from it as possible. So I do thank you for just being open and honest about that, where it is complicated, especially when you are in a multiracial family and you're raising children who do have mixed heritage and do have skin color that might not look exactly like the kid next to them.
So, hopefully with all the work that we're doing together as a community, that is the world that we're gonna move towards.
Neha Ruch: Well, you and I are gonna have to be a support group for each other when they get older. Because I think it's not just about keeping them free of it, but I think it's looking it in the eye and helping them process it when it does come up.
Because I think that was what was missing when we were younger. I don't think there was a recognition that that trauma was happening. And so there wasn't enough scaffolding to support us. It was hard.
Vanessa Shiliwala: We did not have the language or the words, or even the technology mediums to understand that we were not the only ones.
Neha Ruch: Right.
Vanessa Shiliwala: It was just us. And we thought, this is how it was. I mean, I grew up in Wisconsin. I was the only Asian person for like a hundred miles. And so it was a very alienating experience. And to your point, we do have to help them face it and look it in the eyes. In fact, I talk about this in a different episode, but my daughter, I was on my way to pick up my daughter when I experienced a hate crime.
And I arrived at her school in tears and she was asking me why I was crying. And in simplest terms, I had to tell her someone didn't like the way mommy looked. And so, you know, she was three years old and I don't try to like sugarcoat things for her. I just try to tell her like, what happened.
But I also instill a lot of pride in her and I buy her a lot of books about our cultures, both of our cultures, because I'm Chinese and Taiwanese, my husband's Indian, he's also Muslim. And so all these identities have faced a lot of stereotypes and racism and phobias over the course of even just the last 20 years.
And so it's something that I actively work to cultivate. But to your point, we all need each other. This definitely has to be a support group and it's really helpful to know that I'm not alone, you're not alone. And I think this is the way the world is going is that there are gonna be a lot of different mixed families of different religions and heritage.
And this is beautiful and we need to appreciate it and be there for each other, especially during these times.
How did you make Mother Untitled into a movement? Can you tell us a little bit more about your journey of scaling and growing a business? Was there a time you remember where you first felt like you were getting traction and this was going to be something bigger than what you thought it was going to be initially?
Neha Ruch: Love that question because I literally had just doodled for something or what I thought this was gonna look like, like an up into the right line.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Neha Ruch: And what it's in reality been, is like a squiggle with peaks and valleys.
Vanessa Shiliwala: A hundred percent.
Neha Ruch: So to put into context, Mother Untitled, I launched in January of 2017. I started noodling on it in November of 2016. And the amazing part, like I mentioned about tech right now and letting us not only yes, freelance or consult or work from home and afford us lots of flexible situation, it also lets us tinker with ideas right away. So I was able to within eight weeks put an idea out there, put some survey monkeys out there, do some initial research, start building a site with a friend who's a designer. And then put out a newsletter to my friends and family and start on Instagram and voila there it was.
And in the first year there was growth. I think the reality was there wasn't anyone else and still actually isn't any other platform saying we are gonna exclusively focus on changing the narrative about women, choosing to focus on family life that didn't exist. And so it had initial momentum just by being what it was.
And I was very open to saying like - I have this thesis, this is how much capacity from a time perspective I have and I'm gonna put it all in. So it was in the fringe hours or after bedtime, during nap time where I would write out posts and it was very organic. And luckily I was in New York city and there was a lot of women in the motherhood space.
So I was going to networking events, you know, whether that was on the playground or in a play space or in truly community events that welcomed kids and sharing about what I was building. And so that first year, I saw growth and it was exciting. And then I had my daughter and having a second, really for me it was a very hard transition because I think I'd come up with this perfectly balanced view on what my equilibrium looked like. I had two days by that point I reallocated my time from my freelance consulting work into building Mother Untitled. And then the rest of the time I was spending quality time with my child.
Obviously when you throw another baby in that changes that version of balance and for it took me call it a year of just keeping the lights on. So I was going through the motions and you saw that, you saw that in my growth on the site traffic, on Instagram growth. And then I stepped into 2020 and I was like - Okay, I've done a year and a half of parenting two kids.
I think I have a childcare situation that would allow me to do more. And then 2020 happened. And again, it was really about believing so much in this mission and knowing I would keep moving, even if it didn't look like what I thought it was gonna look like three years in. And letting go of that expectation and readjusting - Okay, this is what success looks like for me right now. Success in 2020 was keeping my family healthy, happy, relatively happy whole, keeping myself sane. And keeping this thing I care so much about alive in the fringe hours. From there, I went into 2021 and I think the moment in time was so exciting for me, because I was stepping back into an infrastructure where my kids were starting school.
There was a moment in time where there was a lot more interest in the gray area and the career pause. And I hit an inflection point that I've been really able to tap into. And it doesn't mean I'm not constantly recalibrating, right? Like, end of school year back to school, June, September complete wash.
Like I slow it down, but I started building a team, a freelance team that is really supportive on the editorial side, on the SEO side, on the design side. And they're all moms and they all work anywhere from two hours a week to 10 hours a week. But it was that moment where I felt ready to grow this into what I always wanted it to be.
And all to say, it's been a squiggle. But I think living the career pause and shift alongside, has allowed this to be that the platform and allowed me to be the voice of this platform in a way that I don't think I could have. If it hadn't been such a journey.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Thank you for illuminating that. I love this idea of the squiggle and kind of leaning into the squiggle. Because I think so often I'm wondering if maybe this is a common pattern recognition you see in business school too, it's this upward curve. It's like - Okay, that's the only way the pattern can look, that's the only way that the chart can look.
Whereas I feel like, if we lean into that squiggle, it's actually perhaps a more sustainable way of creating and sustaining a business, right? Because it's not going to be just an exponential linear curve every time. That's not how life works. And I'm sure the pandemic really showed a lot of businesses and people that was true.
So I think there's something really liberating too about kind of, zooming out on that perspective of it being a squiggle and seeing that it created space for more abundance rather than - Okay, this is just a very narrow version of what success has to look like. And by taking all these detours, we're able to, as you said, meet a lot of different people in the community, connect with like-minded individuals and really widen that whole experience for ourselves.
Neha Ruch: I also would add what I love that you said is we meet a lot of people and zoom out and widen the experience. Because I think that ultimately when I think back into year one and year two and year three, if I had grown at this rate then, I think this platform would be very different than it is now.
I think by the time I stepped into year four and five, I had a different number of years of parenting under my belt, but I also had lived all the different versions of flexible work, parenting with help, parenting with no help, co-parenting with my partner as my only source of help and support.
I've gone through so many different versions, but I'd also seen the landscape around parenting content change so much over five years. And you know, when I started, like I said, it was so much about sharing my own experience in the untitled chapter. And I think, five or six years in, it's much more from an authoritative place of having lived it, having learned so much, having met so many thought leaders and having grown into a thought leader myself. And I think I can approach the conversation from a very different, more confident place. And I think that, I don't know if I would've realized in 2018 or 2019. Yes, I'm slowing down right now, but there's gonna be a big opportunity to step into a more powerful position by waiting.
I've recently been thinking a lot about this idea of when you're feeling creative momentum, but equally you're really enjoying the simplicity. Where does that leave you? And I think one of the gifts of this time has been this idea of just like surrendering to continued forward motion to directionally toward a goal, while also equally not attaching to the outcome and accepting that if it doesn't work the way that you plan, it actually leads you to the way that you're meant to. And I think that was a gift I learned in motherhood when I transitioned from one child to two, because I was holding on to this very fixed view of what it was supposed to all look like. And by letting it go, it really led to the version of all of us that we were meant to be. And I think it translates very much this way.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I really appreciate that because I feel like one of the things for me that it brought up was, I was really looking for that freedom and permission to fail, to try something to fail, to pivot and that wasn't something that I felt I had the psychological safety to do in my situation before having kids.
And I do agree having a second, you know, you often hear that story about, I mean, this is from like going from like two to three, which I can't speak for, but having a third kid is like, you're trying to tread water and then someone throws you like a third kid or something. And I definitely felt that when I had my second, because she was born two months before the pandemic.
And so she was also in the NICU for two weeks. So it was just a lot of unplanned things happening. And to your point, I've also tried many different combinations of childcare. The full spectrum really from postpartum nanny, which is really common in Taiwanese culture.
And then having part-time nanny, full-time part-time daycare. You know, tried so many different combinations. And to your point, it kind of changes with the season. Sometimes you need more, sometimes you're like - Okay, maybe I got this, maybe we can do this, maybe we have a plan. One of the things that I appreciate about your platform is this empowering mindset that you equip your community with, in terms of really reframing the season of our lives, where we do wanna prioritize family.
And some of us to your point have encountered people in our network who may judge us for this pause or make assumptions, or have their own biases about the value and worth of a mother who has prioritized her family, especially when that mother has invested a lot of time in their career and education.
So how would you recommend we address these biased beliefs about our value and worth, especially when it comes to maybe even our partners or family members or employers?
Neha Ruch: So there's sort of two sides of that conversation, right? There's the broad cultural, like taking it on from a cultural perspective, which like in the context of your question would be the employers and sort of your outer circle.
And then there's the inner circle and I would drill down deeper. It's you? It's in yourself, which is to say, I think so much of relieving yourself of the pressure of defending yourself against other people's judgements, starts with feeling really confident and clear about your why? Why is this choice?
Whatever that choice is, whether it's returning to work, because you're gonna face stigma that way, whether it's constructing the in- between, whether it's staying home, why is that choice right for you? And then understanding that anyone who is judging is often judging and there's a lot of psychology behind this.
Is often judging because they're making sense of their own choices or relationship with this experience, right? So oftentimes it's a person say they had made the opposite choice in their own parenting experience, or they didn't get to and they hoped that you would, right? So take my mother, who by the way is one of my most wonderful supporters, but she did stay home, but not by choice. And she did everything in her power to make sure that I got the resources and the education so that I would always feel financially independent, that I would feel impactful.
And so she really had to reconcile for herself when I made a different choice. Now I use her as an example, because A: I know that she wouldn't mind me sharing that, but I can say that there were several other people, not just from her generation, but my peers who were making different choices or making sense of their own choices and what they expected of me in relation.
And I think when you realize that there's so much that they're processing at the same time, it frees you from the desire to help them understand. Because they will understand by watching you, they will watch you live your life and learn through the decisions that you make and make new choices along the way.
But I think you gain so much time and so much power by recognizing that that's their own process that they have to work through. I think in terms of a cultural perspective or family, a partner dynamic, I think that's another different one, right? Because that actually is impactful to you personally in the home.
In making sure that everyone in the partnership understands what they're contributing. I often bring up Eve Rodsky's Fair Play because I think it's such an asset to women to be able to have a hands on way for partners to be able to really see what goes into taking care of the household.
There's research that I love to share around a woman's or a man's value that they're contributing both financially, as well as just unpaid labor by choosing to focus on caregiving. And I think that that conversation doesn't need to be so cerebral. Obviously the research helps. I think it really can be a joint conversation around what are our priorities right now?
How does this make us as a family more whole, more supported? And I think that exercise around being clear on the why is one that you can have as a couple and is important to have at every juncture. But it's that one is a really important one to have understanding and clarity around. And then on the other side, in terms of networking with employers on the other side around reentry, one of my favorite conversations to have is around the leadership skills gained in the home, right?
I think that there are some iconic examples like Nancy Pelosi. Nancy Pelosi never entered the political arena until her five children were out of the home. She gained her experience by volunteering in the PTA, and that led her to a connection she had to congresswoman.
So when her youngest went to college, That congresswoman said - Hey, do you wanna consider stepping into this arena with me? There are obviously other examples like that, but it's such a powerful reminder that that experience that you have volunteering in the PTA, that experience that you have non traditionally caring for a home, understanding the health systems for your child, understanding the education systems for your child, advocating in that capacity, all lend to incredible leadership training ground.
And I think, as we navigate these last few years, there's really a shift in being able to value and talk about those skills gained. But I would also encourage women to talk about the learning experiences they had, in freelancing, volunteering, in whatever capacity they might have been able to in the community during their pauses.
Vanessa Shiliwala: That was such a rich answer.
Neha Ruch: There's so many dimensions to that.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes, yes. And I didn't even know that about Nancy Pelosi, so that's such a great story to share. And I think that the empowering thing is that it really gives us a narrative to carve out a space for ourselves outside of that shame that we might have internalized from staying home with our kids. That there are these leadership skills there's negotiation, time management, so many other skills that we've learned that are an asset that's transferable anywhere.
And so, I myself have also faced discrimination of being a mother, trying to reenter the workforce. And I was really shocked actually when it happened, cause I thought - Oh my gosh, why is this still happening? But I've learned that yeah, we do have to kind of champion ourselves when it comes to well, here's what I have learned, here's what I've started, here are the skills that I picked up and here's how I'm still valuable as an asset.
Neha Ruch: I highly recommend women, if they have the ability to, to work with a career coach or even just a resume writer. And we have resources on our site with a mentor board on our site.
Resume writers help shape your story, right? I often offer a script for how do you answer what you do with confidence. In that same line of ,thought helping shape your resume so that it best represents those years that you took off, and to extract from your two years or five years or however many years, a storyline, I think is a really powerful exercise in reflecting on - Wow, how did I grow? Or how did I participate? How did I network in ways that I think so often because they are nontraditional, we underestimate ourselves.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Of course. In the field of entrepreneurship, activism and social change, there can be a lot of setbacks or events that do feel out of our control. And I know recent event is the overturning of Roe versus Wade is, you know, had a lot of ripple effects and impact on our community.
What are some ways that you set success metrics for yourself? And how do you manage the difficult emotions that may come up with this very unpredictable journey of motherhood and entrepreneurship and social change?
Neha Ruch: These are such big questions. I feel like I have very big, very long answers.
Vanessa Shiliwala: That's okay.
Neha Ruch: Success metrics I think is one that is applicable across motherhood, across entrepreneurship, across social change. And it's basically, again, it goes back to that clarity of deciding for yourself what metrics of success looks like. And revisiting them over and over, right?
It goes back to not being fixed and finite. So in this year with the stage, my children are in, you and I talked about, they're both on a bus to camp. And they don't come back until four o'clock, I'm living in a very different season than I've ever lived before.
And so I get to change the metrics of success, my metrics of productivity, what I wish for myself. And sometimes those metrics of success can just be about nurturing my marriage, right? Like that's a big job.
Vanessa Shiliwala: It is.
Neha Ruch: Or it is, especially after you have kids, or it's building community and relationships around Mother Untitled the networking, you can get as precise as you wanna get or it's impact.
And getting more involved in the broader community, whatever you decide is successful right now, comes again with that caveat for right now, which means if right now I can only take on one social issue. The gun laws and my involvement with Moms Demand and contribution to Everytown, is really top of mind.
It doesn't mean that abortion rights and work with planned parenthood is not top of mind. It means that at some point, if you try and take it all on, there's a sense of overwhelm and doom. And there's a lot of us moms that care a lot. And I think if we can each pick, this is what activism looks like for me right now, whether it's on the scale of an organization or it's within your community or within the school or within your home.
And you say - You know what, parenting my children with peace and awareness is what activism looks like. It is a sliding scale at any given time you can dial up or dial down, but you get to decide what that looks like. And I think that clarity of definition is applicable to all the tenets you described, you know, entrepreneurship what's possible right now, motherhood what's possible right now.
You know, there's always trade offs, right? Like I choose to enjoy play and being on the floor with my kids. It means that I do not get to cook them really homemade gourmet meals. And for that reason, my kids are picky eaters. That is the situation I entered into, but I have a real clarity around why that is and what I chose to focus on. And I think that that pertains to all the vectors you described.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Amazing. I completely agree with that. I think it's the common thread that I'm hearing from you is really about kind of, handing the power back to us, to rewrite all these standards and metrics that we were measured against before becoming parents and really having to reckon with not achieving against those kind of ways of the past and being able to define it for ourselves.
And I think a lot of us are going through that overwhelmed with the doom scrolling and just so much news that even myself, because I started this podcast in response to the rise in anti-Asian hate crimes. And I've had to mute notifications from a lot of those accounts over the past year, because ,I can't take as much trauma as what's coming at me sometimes.
And that's just been a conscious choice, but I do my part in activism in other ways. So to your point, even raising our children to advocate for themselves and advocate for others, is a very powerful and important and sustainable choice to act accordingly on a mission that you care about.
Neha Ruch: I read somewhere that they were calling the generation of our children, "the love generation". And I think it's a really beautiful way to frame this time that we're raising that generation that hopefully will be kinder, softer, more powerful, more aware, than any generation prior.
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure. What was your most valuable lesson you learned as a founder that you might not have learned in business school?
Neha Ruch: Connections can happen anywhere. I think that we are conditioned in the traditional workplace to believe they happen in very specific conference rooms, classrooms.
I think that some of the most incredible connections I've made and it's such a gift in motherhood have been on playgrounds. Truly. I co-hosted an event in March and it was such a beautiful event filled with so many creative women in New York. And my co-host was a woman that has her own incredible venture and platform, but she and I met in a baby playgroup. And I think that, we can't underestimate the connections we're making in ordinary circumstance.
Vanessa Shiliwala: That's amazing. For the last couple minutes, I wanna help our listeners get to know you a little bit better. What's your Thrive Spice: a habit or a routine that helps ground or affirm you or reclaim peace and joy in your daily life?
Neha Ruch: I got into this habit in the pandemic. I do a five to eight minute meditation on insight timer. It's a chakra cleansing, which I am not that: Woo woo. But like it is, for some reason I'm a very visual person. It is the only thing that has worked in meditation, but it really, has let me connect to that practice that otherwise evaded me.
I open my iPhone notes and I do a really quick three bullet list of gratitudes. And it can be as simple as health and happiness, or it can be as small as that my kids chose to do the full day at camp. And then I do like a 20 minute Melissa Wood health movement. And that combination of those three things really helps.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Amazing. I love that is just a little bit of body and mind and spirit.
Neha Ruch: And under 30 minutes.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes. All about that, yes. So I'm a bit of an interior design nerd. So I wanted to ask, I've noticed you have a beautiful home that's been featured in domino and other magazines.
Home renovation is also a notoriously stressful yet rewarding process. Do you have a go-to design inspiration or process when it comes to home renovation and design?
Neha Ruch: So design has been a hobby since I was in my twenties. And I was always a magazine junkie too.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Me too.
Neha Ruch: So I was collecting magazines for ages and when I was in my twenties and I had nothing but time, I would like follow the Elle Decor city guides.
And I would like pop to the different stores and like pop in. Now I don't have that. But I do have Instagram, which is really lovely. And I usually try and follow accounts that have sort of my, you know, whether it's Leanne Ford or Chongo and Company, Chongo and Co you know, have a sensibility that I gravitate to.
I have a pretty clear sense of what I like. And with both houses that I'm lucky to have, we have a country home and we have our city apartment. I really started with like, what is the feeling I wanna cultivate in this house, in this space, pulled out colors. I really liked vision board would do that.
And then I just started browsing and I'm not technical. So I probably have gotten all the spacing wrong, like in terms of measurements, but I do have a sense of what goes together once I pick the palette. And I really commit to, this is the palette, this is the filter that I'm looking at everything through, and it's a little bit of this conversation we've had being clear on also what it's not gonna be. Because I'll take this house. I really went with neutral and textured, but which means that, like that bold, like pink and white striped cabana like that, that's not gonna work. There's no place for it. There's no room for it. And so I think it's a really thoughtful exercise and combing the ends of the internet and content and magazines, which is all stuff I love.
It's a hobby. And combing through it with the filter of what's the feeling that we wanna cultivate and what's the palette that I committed to.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. I really get that sense of that thoughtful curation. So it makes sense when you kind of explain your process it shows, so you did a great job.
Neha Ruch: Thank you. but I do think even hobbies also, I think that was something I was able to make a lot of room for in this stage of life. And I think creative pursuit, yes, can come through in something so visible, like a platform like Mother Untitled, but it can also come in these sort of ordinary, whether it's like cooking for your family or it's designing your own.
I think allowing yourself to invest in things that you're not trained in. Is a gift of this chapter because I think there's so much ego around it. But I've been able to really let myself sink into it and take on projects like that with less intimidation because I gave myself permission to walk away from this sort of linear expectation.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh, that's so great. I love that. It is very freeing to give ourselves permission to explore those hobbies and not have to meet some expectation, it's just for ourselves. And that is the best gift of all. What's your favorite comfort food or drink or a restaurant in New york?
Neha Ruch: Oh, in New York? I love L'Artusi, the cacio e pepe at L'Artusi, yeah. And, a glass of Sancerre.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm oh, that sounds great. I could go for that right now. What was the last moment that brought you joy or hope?
Neha Ruch: My son came home from camp on Friday and they do something called starfish awards. Where they recognize a kid in each group for representing a quality or a value of the camp. So it could be tolerance, it could be bravery. And he got appreciation. And in the notes they said, he's so kind and welcoming to everyone.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Awww!
Neha Ruch: And I just, you don't get many moments like that in parenting, where you get to zoom out and say like - This is it. This is the big picture. We're so focused on all the little things that are annoying, or that we feel like we need to fix. It's just a reminder that these kids know who they are and if they're good humans, we're doing the best work and everything else sort of fades away.
Vanessa Shiliwala: That's such a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing. I think that it's so rewarding as a parent, when you do get those moments.
So thank you again for all the wisdom that you shared the honesty, the vulnerability, I really appreciate that. I think that's what's drawn so many women and parents to your platform and it is a gift.
So thank you so much, Neha.
Neha Ruch: Oh, Vanessa, you asked the most thoughtful questions and you know, you asked about success metrics earlier. And one of my biggest was connections and network. I think the biggest gift of Mother Untitled to me has been the women it's brought into my life.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Absolutely.
Neha Ruch: So I'm so glad we got to connect and I'm excited for more.