Mayuko Okai on Intuitive Eating, Body Acceptance and Mindful Living

Season 1 Episode 9

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Mayuko and Vanessa unpack myths about our mental and physical health in diet culture and discuss the allure of the abundance trap in many areas of our lives: our bodies, our self worth, our relationships, and our careers. Mayuko shares her own journey of self-discovery after uprooting her life in Los Angeles, CA and moving to Japan. We talk about finding freedom, healing and peace in our relationships with food, our bodies and our minds. Mayuko shares why it's so important to lean in to compassion when rewiring our minds to identify and let go of falsely idealized expectations that don't serve us -- whether it's diet culture, body image, romantic relationships, or what success should look and feel like.

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About Mayuko and Food Liberation:
Mayuko Okai is a Registered Dietitian, yoga teacher, and founder of Food Liberation: a coaching program that helps mindful individuals heal their relationship with food and body.

EXCLUSIVE OFFER:  Mayuko is offering  a 10% discount for private coaching and self study course for Thrive Spice listeners with the promo code: THRIVE. 
Learn more at https://food-liberation.com

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episode music courtesy of Uppbeat [ATM]

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Full interview transcript of Thrive Spice Season 1 Episode 9 - Mayuko Okai on Intuitive Eating, Body Acceptance and Mindful Living

 Vanessa: Welcome to Thrive Spice. Our guest today is Mayuko, a registered dietician yoga teacher and founder of Food Liberation, a coaching program that helps mindful individuals heal their relationship with food and body. While working eight years across hospitals in Los Angeles, Mayuko pursued yoga teacher training, which opened the doors to a world of healing she had yet to explore. This inspired her to leave her career, to shift her nutrition practice, incorporating mindfulness techniques with a focus on emotional care today. Mayuko takes delight in guiding clients internationally to find food freedom so that they can live their full life. In 2021, she founded a scholarship to help provide accessible services to teenagers. Mayuko can be found practicing Ashtanga yoga, eating to her heart's desire and spending time in the countryside of Japan, where she now resides.

This is actually our first international episode of Thrive Spice. So I'm really excited to be starting that with you. Welcome Mayuko. We're so happy to have you here today and just so excited to learn more about your personal journey and want to start off with just talking a little bit about, and I know this is a really deep topic for those of us in the community, which is body image and Asian culture.

And I wanted to still take a step back and share some research as well as my own personal experience before we dive in. And we've seen that women with a positive body image are more likely to have good mental health. Which seems to make sense, but many women in the US and around the world have negative body image which can, which can put them at a higher risk of depression, eating disorders, or other mental and physical health problems.

And then when we look at Asian-American women, a study published in Clinical Psychology Review found that in comparison to white women, Asian women actually exhibited higher levels of disordered eating behaviors, such as excessive weight and dieting concerns, restrictive eating and body dissatisfaction, as well as having a smaller, ideal body and reported weight.

So thinking about that and reflecting on my own experience, I've also struggled to bridge the cultural pressure of East Asian culture to be thin, particularly through my pregnancy and postpartum journeys, where I gained and lost a lot of weight in a short amount of time. But I do remember understanding from even a young age that a thin body signals, beauty success and desirability, even as a daughter, a wife and a mother.

Yeah, there's this contradictory familial pressure to eat everything that's placed in front of you finish every last grain of rice or you're considered like rude and disrespectful. And even when we're not around our families, I find that it can also carry over to social environments that I've been in with other Asian-American women, where we seem to internalize and act as both sides of this contradiction.

For example, we might participate in casual negative body self-talk including saying stuff like, oh, I have to go run five miles after I eat this. Or I feel so fat or, oh, I really shouldn't eat that kind of stuff. There's this pressure of FOMO and eating whatever we want. But then on the other side, there's also this pressure to be thin, no matter what.

So I'm really curious to hear your perspective on how media family and our cultural values and diet culture affect our own mental health. And what impact does this have on our relationship with food and ourselves?

Mayuko: [00:03:48] Yeah. And that's such a loaded topic but such a great one. And, I will speak on, what I can, based off of my observation, growing up in an Asian household in the US. So my parents came from Japan. Well, we came from Japan. And so I think first of all, diet culture is huge everywhere, right? So we're all affected by how we should look, right. We're told at a very young age that we need to look a certain way and we need to eat a certain way. And even if it's not blatantly said out loud, if we're looking at, makeup brands, clothing brands, it's all about being a certain size, which is thinner than what most people are naturally, or having flawless skin, having perfect eyebrows and listen, you know, it's everything.

And all of this, we are just subconsciously brainwashed basically to fit into this mold. Like, we need to look a certain way. We need to be smaller. Right. And I think, especially in Asian culture, because Asians tend to be a smaller frame and in a country like Japan, where most people living in Japan or Japanese, so we're not, I'm in Japan right now, but you look outside, you go outside and everyone is Japanese and generally around the same size. So if you are slightly larger than that, then maybe, maybe you're lazy. Maybe you're eating too much. Maybe there's something wrong with you. And this is a conformist society, right?

Everyone wants to be the same way. Everyone wants to look the same way you don't want to stand out. And so I think that's a huge problem. And what I do appreciate about the us is diversity is embraced. We are now expanding what beauty looks like. In terms of color, in terms of body size and having workouts and yoga classes that are more accessible.

Right. So that's a really great movement, but there's still so much pressure to be in this ideal body weight, which is not realistic for most people. And so I think, yeah, I think diet culture is huge and also there's that Asian family. Right. So I don't know what it is. It's when I observe non Asian families in the US like, wow, like there's so much emotional connection.

Right. Parents are encouraging their children to speak their mind, to share what they're feeling. They're touchy-feely, they hug and kiss. And I love you. I love you every single day. I've never said that to my parents, right? Not that I'm that, not that I need that, we get love and attention in different ways and that's just a different style of communication.

But I personally haven't had that emotional, that space to share emotional connections or just what's going on with my life personally, what am I going through? How is my mental health? Am I happy? Like that's not a conversation on the table, but that's my personal experience. So I think.

There was more room to speak about emotions, to point out mental health and to accept and embrace who you are as a person and not having all of these expectations, societal expectations of beauty standards, but also family expectations of how we need to look what success means, we need to go to a good school and then have a career and all of this.

We were like set up for this path, right? That's like a lot of Asian families, I think, based off of my experience.  I think generally where we are moving towards a positive direction, but that's where we are coming from. And that's why there's so many people with disorder eating or orthorexia, meaning being obsessed with being or obsessed with being healthy.

So eating well and exercising, but that   ignores your stress, that ignores mental health in order to look skinny, which we attribute to being healthy, which is not true.

Vanessa: [00:08:42] Yeah. These are all such great points. And to your point, it is a very loaded topic. And I found it really interesting when you were reflecting on family experiences, when you're observing other families that are outside of the Asian experience. Not that the Asian experience is a monolith, but I definitely can recall that same feeling. And I think there is this very powerful connection between emotion and food. You mentioned that not hearing, I love you or just not hearing the verbalization of, or encouragement of expressing our emotions and mental health.

That is very interesting how it manifests in our relationship with food and our bodies. How do you think we can free ourselves to enjoy healthy relationship with food and our own self-esteem and our bodies?

Mayuko: [00:09:36] Yeah. And if we can back up to that Asian culture just, I know I'm just generalizing, but in the U S there's a lot of independence that's encouraged. But in Asian cultures, it's about the collective, right? So are you doing something for the family, are you thinking about the family, right? Your success is your family's success. And so for me, I found it very challenging to be on this path, which is a very standard path.

I was living in a bubble and I didn't have my own opinions. And when I found my own opinions growing up, when I became an adult, I started questioning the way that my path, my career, my opinions. So I had to break free from that. And it was hard. Well, what would my parents think? Right.

And I left my career and that was a big deal. Right. And I still have those voices hanging over my head. I constantly, if I think of a non-popular opinion or this path, that's not traditional well, what would my parents say? Yeah. So I think, first of all, it's really about knowing who you are, knowing your path, whether that's your dream, your purpose, your values, your core values.

Being very clear with that, I think is important and know that that's worthy, right? That you don't have to live for someone else because that doesn't lead to happiness. And then, so I think body image and the way we eat and the way we take care of ourselves is the same thing. Is trying to lose weight serving.

Yes. Right. Or are you just, in this toxic cycle and just pushing yourself until you are so stressed out and you're just killing yourself over, over what, right. To lose a few pounds to look a certain way so that your family accepts you or that you're attractive. And yeah, I think it's just, first of all, first step is to be clear and to communicate with your body.

I'm all about knowing your path, knowing your, who you are and communicating with your body and listening, instead of listening to external sources, external information, meaning diet culture, not being persuaded by diet interest, you, or at least be conscious about how you are being influenced or brainwashed.

And knowing what's true to you. What is your family saying? What is the societal expectation, right? Is that aligned with you? You have a natural body and what's going to serve you is to take care of your natural body in the way that it works for you. And it's good for your mental health as well.

Vanessa: [00:12:45] I really love that because I think what you're describing with everyone else's standards, whether it's family or society, it's such a moving target, right? Like you think you get there and then you're like surprised I need to lose another X number of pounds, or I need to be this size or something like that.

Whereas if you set your own core values and your standards, and really align yourself with who you are, that target is going to stay fixed and it's not going to be something that. Constantly out of reach. And I think that's so interesting because in this time where we live in, where, especially when it comes to losing weight everything is tracked within an inch of its life.

Whether it's the steps you take or you know, there's all these data and apps that really just generate so much information on how you might be living this healthier life. And so I'm curious what led you to your own personal journey into intuitive eating and mindfulness, which is such a dichotomy from this data driven saturated industry of diet culture, and what has it been like to build a community around mindful nutrition and emotional self care?

Mayuko: [00:13:59] Yes. Great question. Thank you. So my path: I'm a registered dietitian and I'm also now a yoga teacher. So I worked in healthcare for eight years and it was this very standard job and I, from the beginning, I just did not feel aligned with it. It just wasn't the way that I could help people. I didn't feel that my services were actually changing people's lives and making them healthier.

I was just giving information what you should be eating, what you shouldn't be eating. It was just this, these are good foods. These are bad foods based off of your medical condition. Okay. And we're more than that, right? We have emotions, we exhibit behaviors and we have routines and we have culture who's to just come into your room and say, Hey, eat these foods.

Don't eat these foods. You can't just change like that. And so. I struggled with that for a long time. And I came across yoga. And when I went into teacher training, that's when my life shifted. That's when I was able to find my truth, to really realize that I'm misaligned and that if I don't take my life into my own hands, I am just going to be very miserable or continue to be miserable.

And so I left, started teaching yoga, which incorporates mindfulness and being true to yourself and connecting with your body. And then when I came across intuitive eating, I found that that was the perfect integration of mindfulness and yoga and the nutrition world, which is my background. So this was, it was such an “aha” moment and it felt like, wow, this is where I can help.

There are so many people that are struggling with food and they're not necessarily diagnosed as eating disorders. So they're not going to the hospital or anything. They're not getting any treatment. They're just living their day to day and struggling inside. They can't do the things that they love because they don't want to gain weight or they're unhappy with their body, they don't want to get more compliments about the way they look or not compliments comments about the way they look or suggestions to lose weight. And that's also present in the medical field. There's a weight stigma, the way doctors treat their patients is different based off of how they appear based off of their weight.

And that's bias, that's discrimination, right? Not based off of medical conditions, that’s based off of weight. And so that's how I came to intuitive eating. It's just such a mindful way to approach your body. It's a yogic way to, to eat and to take care of yourself. And it's very holistic, meaning we look at all aspects of your life, at least in my program.

We look at, what is your support system? Like, what are your relationships like? How has your work life balance, right? It's all connected. We can't just look at food. We can't just look at nutrition and say, this is right. This is wrong. I, it's not about the calories. We're completely removing numbers, weight and calories and protein, all of these things.

It's not really that important, especially if you are trying to heal your relationship with food, that's not where we should be looking at. So that's how I came to intuitive eating and building  this through liberation. It was just, my program has been, I don't know, it has been so rewarding working in healthcare and working with, thousands of patients, dozens of patients, a dozen patients every day and not feeling like I'm helping anybody and now working with people and really getting to know them and seeing their transformations, seeing them become free from diet culture free from their own minds.

It's just such a rewarding feeling, knowing that I'm able to help someone, even if I'm not helping thousands of people at this point, even if it's a handful, I'm making a difference and I'm helping someone not just change the way that they view food and their body, but the way they live. Making sure that they are aligned with who they are embracing their core values so that they can spend their time and energy doing all of the things that they love.

So I'm really grateful that I have been able to create this path and create this program.

Vanessa: [00:18:57] Yeah, I can see the joy on your face. When you talk about this community and this world you built. And it also brings me a lot of joy to see that I can see that and I can relate to that too, right? Because the work that we do when we build a community, it's very healing and seeing others transform their own.

As you mentioned, Prisons, escaping out of the prisons of our own negative thinking or ways of trapping ourselves in ways that don't serve us that is so healing to see others discover that become aware of it and really evaluate their lives holistically, as you said. And a lot of it sounds like, honestly, just common sense, right?

As you mentioned, we can't view, a diet and our bodies as a silo. There's all these other factors in our lives, whether it's relationships and work and sleep and stress that really play a big role. And it seems like the more science studies this, the more they confirm that it's not just about calories and all that.

It's definitely a multifaceted ecosystem. And I think that is really progressive, but at the same time refreshingly basic, the way you're approaching eating and in our bodies. I saw a glimpse of your mindfulness retreats and they look amazing. Particularly I noticed the spread of food on the table and being Asian, like I'm always all about like what's on the table to eat.

So tell me a little bit more about that. They look incredible. And I just wanna, hear more about what that experience is like.

Mayuko: [00:20:36] Yes. Thank you for asking. I had my first retreat this past weekend in, thank you. It was in the like the mountains and nature-y resort area in Japan and it’s basically a way for people to connect to their body and experience intuitive eating, so that they can start making changes in their lives and connect to their bodies. So we ate, we did yoga, we talked, we shared, and one main part of this was mindful eating, which I always encourage anyone to do. If you do one thing out of intuitive eating, it's mindful eating.

Even if you have a healthy relationship with your body, even if you're happy. And so what we did was we ate in silence and we took one bite at a time. And this is the food that we had was so delicious. It was all locally grown food and prepared and. And so every bite we would take our time to chew and notice a flavors and textures and our body's response to it and going slow.

It's just such a different experience than just like shoving food down. Like we normally do watching Netflix or, talking and engaging in other things we're looking at external stimulus, or external, just we're just looking outside. So we go in by looking going and eating slowly. So that was really great.

And everyone had different experiences and realizations through that. And it was just a really great way to experience mindfulness in different aspects. So we washed the dishes mindfully. Walking meditations, we did restorative yoga, and then we got into the hot Springs. That's a lot. Yeah. Was just this very relaxing, yet enriching, supportive environment in nature.

We're surrounded by these beautiful mountains and trees and yeah, it was really beautiful. And we were planning to continue to have them on a regular basis. So I really looking forward to this new challenge that I have now that I'm in Japan and, you know, it's different people. I, the people here they're looking for, maybe different things and different types of opportunities and intuitive eating is it's not known in Japan.

The book is not translated. So I think part of my role is to share that.

Vanessa: [00:23:29] For sure. I love that you mentioned this exercise was slowing down and really tasting and enjoying our food because having worked in corporate environments in New York city for many years, I've witnessed the Midtown lunch, like shoveling or routine.

It's just shoveling the food in their face and looking at their phone at the same time. No one has tasted their food. No one knows what they ate. Like it's just a complete lack of mindfulness. And there's this pressure of you. Can't take a lunch break, you have to eat at your desk. You need to be doing something you need to be productive.

So I think that it's also connected with this pressure to be productive at the same time that we need to be so productive that eating and sleeping and just basic human wellness functions are just considered an optionality in terms of Yeah, basic self care. So I think that that is such a great lesson.

And I love that you mentioned that because I've also been trying to do that instead of looking at my phone or reading something or watching TV, I just eat. And I find that I'm actually quicker at eating. When I do that, then if I'm reading something, if I read something, I end up my lunch takes like 45 minutes and I don't know, I finished my lunch, so I'm just working and instead of actually eating.

So I really love that. And I definitely wish I could be at one of your retreats. I'd love to come sometime. Yeah.

Mayuko: [00:25:01] Oh, I would love to have you.

Vanessa: [00:25:05] And yeah, I definitely see a market for that in terms of. People wanting to get away and, almost like an antidote to the stresses of modern day life with all of the technology and obviously recovering from this pandemic, I'm really craving that human connection and just a slower pace.

That's more mindful and appreciative of just every day joys like eating. I want to switch gears a little bit. And you mentioned, of course you moved to Japan recently, and I can only imagine that that's come with its own set of transitions and maybe even a bit of culture shock. And as entrepreneurs and as women we're often sold this idea of, as you mentioned earlier, this linear path of checking the boxes in terms of beauty, money and fame, as a pathway to happiness, as well as finding a nice Asian husband or buying a house, having children, we know the drill, like everything, our grandparents and our parents tell us over and over again.

And it's almost like this “abundance trap”. So how are you defining success and happiness on your own terms? Particularly as someone who's recently moved to a new country and started a new business or pivoted and a new relationship as well.

Mayuko: [00:26:23] Yeah. I mean, I have definitely fallen victim to this trap - this “abundance trap”. You know, I thought leaving my career was the step,  and moving towards this, these, all of these goals, that seems gladly glamorous. But when I got too far into it, I realized, wow, like I'm struggling. I'm like my mental health is struggling and where am I? Right. And I realized this isn't the way I wanted to work.

I wanted to really be true to myself and that's why I left my career. And if I need to be true to myself, I need to let go of some of these goals that are, I'm not going to say they're not tangible, it's attainable, but. I'm not sure if it's attainable exactly in the same way for me. And so I really had to take the step back and assess the situation and letting go of expectations again, this time it wasn't societal expectation or parental expectation.

This was expectation in this entrepreneurial bubble. And I like to compare this to dieting, right? So this entrepreneurial path is like, okay, if you hustle, you can be successful and make this much money and be completely free. You can be financially free by 40 or whatever. Right. That's similar to saying you can have the skinny body, and as long as you work out a lot and you don't eat too much, you can get there.

How many of how many people are successful in dieting? Very, very little, right? How many people are successful in entrepreneurship, right. And of course there's different types of success. Then I'm here. We're talking about that financial success of becoming   this millionaire, so that you don't ever have to work again.

You don't ever have to be bound by whatever it is. And so this was for me, a really nice opportunity for me to redefine success. I mean, I always knew what that success was, but I had to be like, Hey, let's come back. Let's regroup here. And success, of course is being happy. And loving what I do.

That's my success. Right. And if I can do all of the things I love. And to be able to support myself through that. I think that's, I think I'm going to be so happy. And without feeling worried, whether if I'm going to make it or not, that path that struggle, you know, is that really the direction or the style that I want to work?

No, I want to be content. I want to be grounded in every step of the way. I want to be connected to my purpose. I wanted to be connected to my core values every day and not, that's not my end goal. That's not, a few years later. And then just gonna hustle until I get there. I want to be connected to that on a regular basis on a daily basis.

And so it's really hard because there's so much noise. As soon as you go on social media, that's what's like in front of you and it's easy to be persuaded in that direction. Yeah. It's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm not saying it's evil. I'm not saying that it's wrong. I think, there are people who are able to do it and that works for them.

But I think that for me personally, that's not necessarily the way that I want to go. Right. So I want to really figure out how I want to work in my own way. And I'm finding different opportunities in Japan. And I've only been here for several months. And so I want to be open to all of these possibilities, even if it weren't part of the plan or, if it's not directly bringing in financial abundance, right.

If I can appreciate that and take care of each opportunity that comes my way, as long as it's aligned with my work and my passion, then I think that's the way to be. And we talked about relationships last time and yes, and yes  I'm expected to start a family and have this ideal partner and everything, and, which I thought I would be doing as well, you know, but at the same time with a new partner who did not fit my box by it, wasn't in my ideal standard or model or whatever.

It really challenged my perspective again. And, he is someone who isn't on a career path or aspirational or involving a dream like I am. And at first I questioned that, oh, what is that like to not have a dream, to not be motivated, that's below me. Right. That was my initial judgment and criticism.

Then I was like, oh my goodness. I can't believe I'm thinking this way. He's happy. He's grounded. And he's not, I'm worried about the future. He's living every day in the moment. And there's so much contentment and, and where am I? I'm worried. I don't know if I'm going to be able to follow my dream or to reach that goal.

And, it's just, I think it's really helping me too. Live in the moment and to be happy with the way I am and to enjoy the work I'm doing, even if I'm still in the stages of just taking one step in front of the other, even if I'm not near that success, quote, unquote success, every step of the way is something I want to be really a part of and be connected to that.

So that's something that I've recently learned and learning to embrace.

Vanessa: [00:33:10] Well, I thank you for sharing that. I think it's such a sign of. Personal growth, which is hard and not comfortable and confusing at times. And I'm right there with you in some moments, right? We think that we want certain things.

And when we get there, we're like, oh, wait a minute. This I'm not happy. Or this isn't what I pictured. And I love how you. Describe that tension between having this plan,  we grow up where it's, brainwashed into our heads, have this five-year plan, have a ten-year plan. What's your business plan.

We have to have a plan. And then when things like the pandemic come and life happens, we have to all of a sudden be very resilient and pivot, and all of a sudden we're out of our comfort zone. And I think that that's what the upside has been of the pandemic. And just seeing all these people uprooted and having your plans change, because all of a sudden, you know, the word that I focused on as I was listening to you was Do. What I do.

So "do" being present tense, and that's all you can focus on right now. And it's so in line with what you're talking about with that and mindfulness and the intuition, and just really slowing down to observe the micro moments in our lives. Okay. As we know if we don't pay attention, they just fly on by and  we don't know how half of the year has already flown by.

And I think with your relationship, it's also so refreshing to hear that too, right? Because from a very young age we're conditioned, you know, find a successful, nice, partner who had is a high income earner and checks all the boxes and has their own plan of, five to a hundred years for success.

And it is a lot of pressure. And I think that the fact that you sat with your discomfort around that and questioned it is really inspiring. I think for a lot of us because life tends to not follow what we think is going to be. When we're like, oh no, this isn't what I wanted. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, but I'm happy.

And why. And so I think that's such a helpful perspective to just  zoom out and take a look and think about, okay, well What does this mean? And why am I uncomfortable? And I think a lot of us could definitely benefit from that. And re-examining how we define success and happiness and all of that.

So I really appreciate you sharing that with us. We've also spoken about taking mental health breaks before. So I want to ask, because , it was kind of funny. We were both in alignment with taking a mental health day and I wanted to ask what your own mental health and wellness routine are and how do you thrive in a time of uncertainty or change.

And do you feel like it's okay to be in survival mode sometimes and thrive at other times?

Mayuko: [00:36:20] Absolutely. Survival mode is nature. That's what animals do. That's what humans do. And yes, this past year has been difficult for most people and to be in survival mode. Yes. That's just what we do. And it's okay.

It's okay to be experiencing hardship and experiencing uncertainty. Right. And it's just such a great time for us to reflect. So my mental health routines : a few weeks ago now I was telling you, I took that break. It was around my menstrual cycle. So as women, we need to be cognizant that we're not consistent people, and our moods fluctuate, our   hormones and our needs. Our needs for food types and our sleep hours may vary. We might need to take a day off and that's okay to honor that. So I think I took, this is a hard month and I took four days. It was a four day weekend for me. And I came out of it feeling really great.

And so I let myself not do anything. I was like, Nope, I'm not going to work. And it's okay. Right. So setting boundaries, I think is a huge part of taking care of yourself, whether that's going through your journey with food, sometimes you are going to be in survival mode and that's completely, completely okay.

And it's not normal to not have those moments. Right. Now I'm taking a social media break. It's been a few days. It's just really nice to cut out the noise and the noise, because that is. Expectations or, false idealized, lifestyles that we kind of create in their minds.

It's just subconsciously seeps into us. And so I think cutting out noise is so important to whether you are just trying to connect with your body or just trying to find your truth. So I'm planning to take a two-week break and going into, I was like, no, like I need to post and I need to respond, but there really is no need for that.

And so now I'm just taking this break and I've fallen out of my morning routine that I really, I really love getting up really early in the morning and practicing yoga and taking my time to eat breakfast. Getting ready then, then getting to work and maybe even taking a walk and it's like that having that space, that's that tone for the day.

And I also feel pressured that I have to always have that morning routine and be that perfect role model because this is what I teach, but to be honest, I fall out of it too. And I do want to get back into it because I think it's really helpful for my mental health and overall wellbeing. So, but everyone has their own mental health routines or what works for them and what doesn't, I don't think everyone has to have a routine, right?

Some people are completely happy not having a morning routine and waking up early. Some people can just sleep until 10 o'clock and be content and that's okay. You don't have to have a certain way that everyone else is telling you that you need to do. That's just something that works for me and you don't have to do a certain way as long as it's working for you.

Vanessa: [00:40:07] Yeah. I really love that. And thank you for just being transparent.   We can't uphold these routines all the time and it's okay to give ourselves permission to do that as well. And I think just being aware is also great in that aspect. And I think for me personally, I as a mother and just as a woman and definitely has an Asian woman, I've always struggled to give myself permission to take a break.

And that's something I've been working on a lot in therapy to just say, okay, this is my space. I am not going to work. And I have to carve out the time and really hold myself accountable and not give myself negative feedback. Oh, you're being lazy. You could be doing this and this needs to get done.

And there's piles of laundry that need to be folded and all of that, that, and to do lists and they're not going anywhere, but I've had to literally write down, like the time that I spend away from doing that will actually help me and will actually help to recharge. And it will not be a loss.

So that's something that I think a lot of us struggle with in terms of giving ourselves permission, setting those boundaries, holding ourselves accountable and. As for social media. I also really struggle with that where there's this dichotomy of needing to spend time on it for work. But then also knowing that it doesn't serve me in a lot of ways and trying to figure out, okay, well, how can I use it to foster real human authentic connection?

And, but then not get sucked into the vortex of just self doubt. And, you know, as you said, the unconscious language of what we're telling ourselves, oh, I don't look like my life doesn't look like this person's life, or I don't have this many likes or followers or just all of the ways that we feel like we can fall short.

When we go on social media and I don't have an answer necessarily, but I can say like, I really relate to it. And it's something that I think particularly as women and as entrepreneurs, we really struggle with trying to figure out. Especially in the time of pandemic, how do we connect with others without going on social media?

But then trying to, serve ourselves at the same time and protect our own energy?

Mayuko: [00:42:39] Right, because social media is where we connected. We would not have met each other if we were, not on this platform and we wouldn't be able to share our own stories and what we do and help people.

So there's so much benefit to social media. So that's why it makes it even harder. But I think taking breaks and not having to feel like you have to post every single day or all the time, it's completely acceptable to do that, you know? So yeah, it's the same thing. It's entrepreneurship,

it's dieting. It's the way we take care of ourselves and putting you first. Yeah.

Vanessa: [00:43:18] Yes. And it is something that we do have to work hard on. But I think that the way that you've described your approach to eating and really it's not just eating it's the whole body wellness is really exciting and refreshing, and that it really centers on core values and not adhering to others' expectations.

And that way your happiness really starts from within. I did have  another question on, you know, when I first saw intuitive eating, I thought about my own family, and I have two young daughters. And if you ask them what they intuitively want to eat in the morning, Cookies and chocolate, you know, anything that is carb-y and delicious.

And I think a lot of us, we kind of struggle with that, right? We are, our intuition is to find comfort in food. And so what is your approach to that when you're working with clients who, for example, may want to eat healthier and eat more mindfully, but also like to enjoy things that are often on kind of that like naughty list of dietitians what do you prescribe for them?

Mayuko: [00:44:29] Yeah. So I think it's really important to no longer have the bad and good list, right? If you're trying to change the way you see food, right? If you are, if there's a lot of tension around food and you're trying to restrict food and it's hard for you and you're in this vicious cycle of maybe binge eating or emotional eating, feeling guilty, restricting.

And then bingeing again, it's, if that's a cycle that you're trying to get out of, then it's really important that you neutralized foods, not placing labels on good and bad food. So if your, and if you're trying to send that message to your children, I actually encourage you to be like, okay, we'll have cookies for breakfast,

because if you say no and say, cookies, aren't good for you. It's not breakfast food. Then that creates rules around food. And then it's like, oh, I can't have cookies. Right. I can only have cookies when I deserve it, or when it's the appropriate time, because it's not good. And then that kind of creates this unbalanced relationship.

And if we can neutralize all foods, then we want the food. When we want it, right? So sometimes we'll crave fruit because we want something juicy and we want that tanginess, or we want those other body creating those minerals. Right. And so I think it's really important that your body you're giving what your body wants in that moment.

And sure. That can be really hard because sugar can give that can continue to have you wanting that. But if you are saying, okay, go ahead and have it and be kind of nonchalant about the fact that your daughters are eating something sweet. Then it's not going to be exciting, super exciting to have it be accessible.

And then if they say they want, you want, I want vegetables be like, okay, there are some vegetables not, oh my God, good job. You're having vegetables. Okay. And it's, I think it's like in France, people have wine on the table and kids can drink it. Right. If you are able to access wine at any age, then you're not going to go crazy at 21.

Like you do in the us. Like I did. Okay. So it's just about again, taking morality out of food, right? Not saying, okay, you deserve to have this. Oh, you did a good job. Now you can have a candy bar. Why can't you have a candy bar, something that's bad for you when you did something good. So taking that confusion out, I think is really important. And also showing that you have a healthy relationship with food because kids are watching.

Vanessa: [00:47:28] Yeah, they're watching everything. I mean, everything they're repeating everything. I was like, where, where, where does he hear that from? I really love how you described that because I see a lot of parallels too, between neutralizing emotions around food and neutralizing emotions in general.

Which I think also ties into our background in our culture with our families assigning success or failure around, oh, you're angry. Oh, you're crying. Oh. You're sensitive. And not normalizing those feelings, not even allowing those feelings to be experienced. And I love that the same approach can be taken to food and I think it's, it is such an important thing to just normalize the full spectrum and to as you mentioned, Take away that stigma and that forbidden rule  approach to food.

So  I definitely want to try that with my girls. And I think even us adults can definitely benefit from that as well, because we do get a lot of messaging around whether it's carbs or red meat or just anything, right. There's so many categories of food that are bad or we're supposed to avoid and all of that.

And it really creates a lot of stress and creates a lot of negative emotions around choice of food. And, in that similar vein, I'm curious, what do you how do you approach it with clients who are struggling with their body image? What kinds of messages can we say to ourselves about our body?

Whether it's, transforming some of the negative self-talk that we have, or the body dysmorphia that we have? How can we transform that and create healthier habits and how we talk to ourselves.

Mayuko: [00:49:21] Yeah. And this is, this is a tricky one. So it's really about unblocking and unlearning what we've picked up along the way since childhood.

So when I work with my clients, we reassess, we assessed their relationship with food and we go back into childhood. How did your parents eat? How did your parents talk about their weight? How did your parents tell you to eat? Did you have rules? Did they let you eat certain foods? And if you have certain patternings, then where did that come from?

And does that serve you? Is that true? And so I think it's really important that we're questioning our beliefs, right? And so first it's that acknowledgement. And then we have to accept also our bodies, our body image, maybe we are this in this body and it's not something we can really change, at least not in the expense of, losing our mental health over.

Right. So if we want to be, have peace with our bodies, we also have to accept this body that. Does so much for us. Our body is not for show. It's not for acceptance, right? It's this body that carries our soul and we want, it's so important to keep it healthy, to nourish debt. It's something that we're born with.

And we are in this body until the day we die. How can we be hating it? How can we hurt it? Right. It's what allows us to walk, to go to the places and do all the things that we love. And if we are, criticizing and constantly judging every, you know, battle scar, whether it's coming from having a baby or it's just your natural, growth, whatever you went through, or even if you didn't go through, which is just your body.

Yeah. Why be so critical about something that houses you? This is the one thing that you have right in your life. So it is tricky to let go of how we want to look and to achieve beauty standards. But it's just being compassionate, right? For yourself, taking care of yourself, as you would take care of your friends and family, think about the language that you use for your body.

Would you say those things to your friends? Right? If we're saying, oh, I'm so fat or I need to lose weight or my stomach is too big. Would you say those things to someone else? Definitely not. Right. Why would you, why is it okay that you were saying those things to yourself, so actively changing the language.

And rewiring your brains is so important. It takes time, but it's possible to unlearn and to be able to accept yourself, you don't have to completely love your body, right. It's okay. I think very few people actually love their body, but it's really about being neutral about your body. Your body is just your body, right?

It's not necessarily being body positive. The goal I think is to be neutral, right? I think being positive means, oh, this is I'm, I'm happy with my body because I'm this way. I love my body because of this. Well now what if we can neutralize it so that there's, it doesn't really matter. Right? What, there you are at your ideal weight or ideal size or.

Vanessa: [00:53:19] Wow. I think that's so revolutionary particularly here in the US where there is this huge push for body positivity. And I think there's a lot of great conversations happening around that, but I think, and I do think that this is also culturally specific to Asian Americans, is that even just working towards a position of neutrality seems far more within reach.

And perhaps as you mentioned more healthy for our own mental wellbeing, because we're not assigning a value to it. It's merely the carrier and not just merely, but it's, it's doing a lot for us, but it is simply a physical manifestation of our souls and our brains and our minds, and,  it's almost like you created this Trinity of neutrality around emotions, food and the body, and.

Maybe that neutrality is that mindfulness as well. But I think that is such a revolutionary concept, particularly for us women who want to embrace the body positive movement, but also wonder how to do so realistically, within our own minds, when we might not be used to  looking at ourselves in the mirror and saying like, wow, you look amazing.

And all of that you know, giving ourselves affirmations. And I think if you are able to do that, that's wonderful. But for some of us that might be harder than for others. So I think. A great point in terms of maintaining that neutrality. And I also wanted to circle back to what you were saying about really evaluating your clients ways they grew up with food, because I can definitely relate to that.

And I see that coming up now, particularly as a parent, trying to raise young children to eat healthfully and mindfully. And I grew up in a very strict household where there was no junk food and there wasn't any candy or soda allowed whereas my husband grew up in a very different type of environment where all of that food was allowed.

So we've also seen our own differences in how we normalize or encourage the junk food and all of that stuff. So my last question is really just around like junk food. Is that a thing in your approach or is all food kind of on the table? With intuitive eating?

Mayuko: [00:55:43] Yeah. So also it is on the table for me personally. I eat, I eat everything. I'm a dietitian, I'm a yoga teacher. I eat meat, I eat sugar. I eat fast food. I eat healthy food. Right.  So I don't have any judgment towards any particular diets.  I don't have any feelings towards  veganism or plant-based diets or different types of diets if it works for you.

I think that's great, right? If you are able to follow that diet and you're happy, your body feels great and it's not stressful. Then good for you, but if you're struggling and trying to restrict yourself, then I think we need to take a look at that. If you're someone who's saying well, sugar is not good for you.

How can you say that? You know, it's, it's okay to have those things. If you're someone who has a really healthy relationship with food and you want to take out sugar and you're able to do that, and it's not, it's a no brainer, then yes, please do it. Like all organic and you know, no sugar or whatever, and you can do it.

Okay, great. But if you have this struggle with food and you are demoralizing, like if you were saying sugar is bad for you, but you really want it and you just binge and feel bad about and guilty and you cheat it, then that we need to reassess that. And we need to start giving yourself permission to bring that back into your diet.

And once you are able to have a healthy relationship with the sugar or whatever it is, then maybe it's, you can take the next steps to reevaluate, what is healthy for you? What works for you? So that's my approach.

Vanessa: [00:57:30] Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think it's really nice that you have such an individualized approach to everyone.

And it shows that our relationship with food and our bodies is quite complicated and there's different factors for everybody.  That's really refreshing to hear as well that you do not restrict yourself in terms of saying, I only follow a certain kind of diet or this is good, this is bad.

So I really think that's a wonderful way to heal our relationships with foods. Thank you so much for sharing your journey, your insights with us today. I definitely feel like we could talk for hours about it. So thanks so much. I wish you best of luck in Japan and let us know if you ever have any retreats here at state side.

I'm sure our listeners would love to attend, so thank you so much Mayuko.

Mayuko: [00:58:19] Thank you so much Vanessa. I love your podcast. I think what you do is amazing and you're such a great interview.

Vanessa: [00:58:27] Oh, thank you. Thanks so much.