Gregory Cendana on Reclaiming Joy through Dance + Pandemic Self-Care for AAPI and BIPOC Communities
Season 1 Episode 11
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Can leaning into something you were previously ashamed of actually become your superpower? We find out when Vanessa talks to Gregory Cendana, a dancer, political strategist and entrepreneur who has been named one of Washington DC's most influential 40 under 40, about dancing for social justice. Gregory reflects upon his upbringing in a conservative Catholic Filipino family and his own coming-out journey, and why his life mission is to help others bring their full, true selves to any space they are in to engender cultural, social and political change. We discuss why prioritizing mental health creates more sustainable communities, and how the idea of collective self-care for Asian-Americans and BIPOC communities gives us the power to heal and reclaim our stories. Plus, we extol the wonders of the adult power nap. Rest is resistance.
About Gregory Cendana:
Dancer, Strategist and Entrepreneur Gregory Cendana is President and co-founder of Can’t Stop! Won’t Stop! Consulting, Chief Creative Officer of Greg Dances and co-founder of The People’s Collective for Justice and Liberation. He was the first openly gay and youngest-ever Executive Director of the Asian Pacific American Labor Alliance and Institute for Asian Pacific American Leadership & Advancement. Gregory was also first openly gay Chair of the National Council of Asian Pacific Americans, co-founder of the diversity initiative Inclusv, and serves on the board of directors for United We Dream as Treasurer and 18 Million Rising as Chair. Gregory was President of the United States Student Association (USSA), where he played an integral role in the passage of the Student Aid & Fiscal Responsibility Act and Healthcare and Education Reconciliation Act. He has been named one of Washington DC's most influential 40-and-under young leaders, one of the 30 Most Influential Asian Americans Under 30, 40 Influential Asian Americans in Washington, DC’s Inaugural Power 30 Under 30™ Award Recipients and the "Future of DC Politics". In his spare time, Gregory enjoys singing karaoke, choreographing dances and trying new recipes. You can find him on TikTok: @gregdances and on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter at @gregorycendana @cswsconsulting.
Mental Health and Social Justice Resources:
-Asian Mental Health Collective:
https://www.asianmhc.org/
-Can’t Stop! Won’t Stop! Consulting:
https://www.cswsconsulting.com
-Collective Solidarity and Abolition Pledge:
http://bit.ly/AsianAbolitionPledge
-People’s Collective for Justice and Liberation:
https://peoplescollective4jl.org
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episode music courtesy of Uppbeat [ATM]
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Watch the full Thrive Spice podcast interview with Gregory Cendana on YouTube
Real talk on mental health
Memorable quotes from Greg’s interview, including joy as a superpower, normalizing therapy, and mental health for stronger and more sustainable communities.
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Full interview of Thrive Spice Season 1 Episode 11 - Gregory Cendana on Reclaiming Joy through Dance + Pandemic Self-Care for AAPI and BIPOC Communities
Full Interview Transcript
Vanessa: Before we start today's episode. I want to address some recent feedback questioning why I have interviewed and shared stories of several LGBTQ+ Asian-American individuals, not necessarily from a hostile place, but one of curiosity, because I do not identify as queer. And my response is simple. They are a part of our community too.
They are our sisters and brothers and aunts and uncles and neighbors and coworkers, maybe even our children. And we might not even be aware of it. At Thrive Spice, we share stories of grit and joy, mental health struggles, and resilience. And I focus on finding those untold stories from people we may not have heard from before.
You may not agree with their political beliefs or how they live their personal lives, but chances are, you will find you have more in common with them than you think, because these are folks who have gone through incredible mental health struggles and experienced discrimination and bias because of what they look like, who they loved, what they identified as, and things that they can not change about themselves, which is something, every marginalized person, whether you're Asian American, a woman, black or brown, or anyone who has felt the pressure to conform to mainstream society and culture can easily identify with. And it's something we can learn from, because these are tools and stories of growth and resilience.
I believe that mental health starts with radical compassion and self-love, and I'm going to be honest. It's something I struggle with at times too. And I find that healing by taking care of our community, amplifying their voices and creating a safe space for everyone because we are all human. We all know, pain and suffering, and we all strive to experience peace and joy.
These are our stories. And if you don't recognize yourself in their stories, may I ask that you practice empathy, mindfulness, and loving kindness as you hear about their journeys. I am honored to have the privilege to share these stories with you and be an ally and advocate for their voices to be heard.
Welcome to Thrive Spice. Our guest today is dancer, strategist, and entrepreneur Gregory Cendana. He's the president and co-founder of Can't Stop, Won't Stop Consulting, Chief Creative Officer of Greg Dances, and Co-Founder of the People's Collective for Justice and Liberation. He was the first openly gay and youngest ever executive director of the Asian Pacific American Labor Alliance
and Institute for Asian Pacific American leadership and Advancement. Gregory was also the first openly gay chair of the National Council of Asian Pacific Americans, co-founder of the Diversity Initiative, Inclusiv, and serves on the board of directors for United We Dream as treasurer and 18 Million Rising.
Gregory was president of the United States Student Association, where he played an integral role in the passage of the Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act and healthcare and education reconciliation. He has been named one of Washington DC's most influential 40 and under young leaders, one of the 30 most influential Asian Americans under 30, 40 influential Asian Americans in Washington, DC's inaugural power 30 under 30 award recipients and the future of DC politics. In his spare time, Gregory enjoys singing karaoke, choreographing dances, and trying new recipes.
So welcome. We're so excited to have you here today. And I know that you've had a super busy schedule, so I also appreciate you making time to tell us the story of your journey here at Thrive Spice, so welcome, Greg.
I want to just start by, asking us to rewind tell us a little bit more about your roots and what your experience was like growing up and how did it end up influencing your life's path?
Gregory: Yeah, for sure. Well, first thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited about this conversation and just the timeliness of it.
In terms of my own roots and background. So I was born in Hagåtña City, Guam, raised most of my life in California. I spent most of it in Sacramento, but kind of spent different summers in the San Francisco bay area. And I grew up particularly in a Catholic immigrant union household, which I think in many ways there were a lot of conservative values that were connected to that, especially as I thought about LGBTQ issues, as I thought about abortion, and even the role of guns and safety for our communities. And so I think my politicization, my education journey, my awareness of injustices kind of grew as I grew. And as I learned and expanded and read more, spoke to more people, and I think it, it grounded me in a couple of different ways.
One it really pushed me as I was growing up to think about my fullness and all aspects of my identity. So especially that someone that I was questioning was wondering, I didn't quite, I growing up, I didn't necessarily know that I was gonna identify as gay, but I always felt different.
There was something about me that was different and. So I held that. It was like, okay, well, how do I create space to allow myself to explore every aspect of my identity, explore and engage with diverse communities? And then another part that stuck with me was, It's to understand how did my parents how did my family become socialized this way? And I think I mentioned church, I mentioned immigration experience, I mentioned even being in a union because I think that those are all different institutions that I think shape one's values. And of course, if you are a parent likely the values that you will try to instill in your children. And so for me it went from personal to institutional and systems really quickly, especially as I learned more about those institutions and the positive, and sometimes negative roles they have in shaping politics and shaping analysis.
And for me, that led me to my work. So, the work that I'm doing now is about how do we create the kind of personal transformation that people could be their full selves, can bring their full selves into any space that they're in? And once there is an intention and an intentionality in doing that work for self, how do we take that renewed self that fullness of ourselves to actually transform the systems and institutions that we are in.
And I believe that will create a ripple effect in terms of broader, like cultural and societal, and political change. And so, yeah, that's a little bit about my roots and my path to how I think about an orient myself to my work.
Vanessa: I love that story. And thank you so much for sharing your personal journey.
A few things, really resonated with me that I can relate to having also grown up in a conservative immigrant family and also been a part of a conservative Christian Church community too, that was also for Chinese Americans, and just growing up around the narratives that that environment creates.
And it's beyond what's, in the Bible or what's in any religious texts, there are a lot of different values and belief systems that are difficult to reconcile with as we kind of come into our own. And I remember when I first moved to New York city, I was going to NYU as a college student.
And I remember hearing at my church literally. You know, during sermons that they thought gay people were going to hell. And I was going to a school where it probably has a highest concentration of queer folks across the country. And it was a really it was a forced reckoning with, okay, well, which side am I going to choose?
Am I going to seek to understand and view this with compassion and really try to understand what it's like to grow up feeling different and really being told that you can't even own who you are. And that's the path that I chose. And it was something that unfortunately I felt like it did force me to kind of have to choose between communities, but I also feel like it enriched and broadened my world in a way I wouldn't have had before, had I not known that such prejudices existed. And I really love how you talk about bringing our full selves to our work, our lives. This is something that I think is really underplayed when we look at the trajectory of our careers and our relationships, and it is something that we can't monetize it necessarily, right?
There's no price on it, but it is truly so important. And that's why I'm curious, when someone like you cares so deeply about your work and it encompasses social justice, the environment and BIPOC, queer and immigrant communities, how do you separate work from your personal life, if at all, and how do you create space to take care of yourself?
Gregory: Yeah. So first I wanna just the story you shared about the church really resonated. I want to share a quick story because I think it kind of relates in that, as I mentioned, I grew up in California and there was a ballot Proposition 8, that was gonna legalize same-sex marriage in the state.
And I remember sitting around at church also like family dinners and there was tons of homophobia. And I think it, it really made me question like what would happen if people at the church or my family found out that I was gay or that I was questioning, you know?
And so I think it, in those instances, it made an already complicated process, even more complicated in terms of exploring my identity, determining if I wanted to come out or not. And so I think I held a lot of that. And I eventually as part of my commitment to ensuring folks can be their full selves, I said, well, in order for me to support and nurture and create conditions and spaces for folks to do that, I have to do that myself.
And so, it was actually through a training, the Rockwood leadership Institute, that I made the decision or had the clarity, I should say that was what I really wanted to ground. My work in - is how do I create spaces and conditions where folks can be their full selves, live their best lives and bring the wholeness and the fullness of their identities to the forefront.
And so I said, okay, I need to come out to my parents. And, and just a quick story on that. Like, I was scared, of course my sister actually was kind enough to join me in coming out to my parents. And I remember vividly actually I was sitting at the kitchen table. My dad was on the other side.
His arms are crossed. My mom was to my left and my sister was to my right. And I just blurted it out. I was like, I'm gay. And I was like, this is not a, I'm not in a process. I'm not I'm I, this is who I am. And. Just, I just wanted you all to know that I am gay. And I remember just like how much once I said that, like the world's weight was lifted off my shoulders.
And I think it was the permission I needed for myself. And the affirmation to myself that this is not only who I was, but it was an integral part of who I was and that I wanted to make sure that every person of color, every LGBTQ person and folks who live at those intersections knew that there was a community knew there was a world that was out there that was supportive, that would be nurturing.
And whether that was blood or chosen family, that there were communities and people out there. And then I think I, that relates to your question around is it possible, or can you separate personal from work life? And, I think the work that I do is so personal, it's so political, in that I think that my pure existence is resistance - and a political existence in that way. And so it's hard to be honest with you because I think that, when I see injustices, I see the injustices, not only to myself, but to my people, my communities. And when you have such a sharpened analysis, a deep analysis around just how rooted racism, just how rooted white supremacy and like these systems of oppression are in our societies and systems and institutions.
It's hard to not separate. However, so I use it to not only motivate me and ground me, but I also use it to remind me that like, joy is just as important. And so even if I'm not in action, even if I'm not, working with frontline organizer, an organization representing, underrepresented and marginalized folks that like it's a responsibility to myself to create those spaces for our care, create those spaces for joy.
And I've been, I finished reading this book and it's a book I actually have right here. It's a book from Mariame Kaba. It's called, We Do This Till We Free Us. And it's about Abolitionist organizing and transformative justice. One thing she says in there that I'm like holding on, that I appreciate, is she said, she's like, I don't actually believe in self care.
She was like, I actually believe in a framework of collective care and community care. And if we, and what would it look like if we put the same kind of energy in our self-care, but thinking about it from a community or collective standpoint that not only would we get the care we would need, but others would, and our broader circles of loved ones would.
And so for me, I was like, wow, that's such an important re-frame because I think, yes, it's important to have self care, but how do we provide the self care and the framework of providing the care for our community and loved ones and that for me, is something that I'm holding. And so, all of that to say, bringing our full selves means that sometimes you do feel like things are personal, but it's how do you create the space so that even in those moments you are reminded of the joy? Reminded of the love? Reminded of the community that you have and are a part of, so that it can get you through whatever you're facing as you continue to bring the wholeness and fullness to the forefront.
Vanessa: Wow, that is so powerful.
And thank you for sharing what you're holding from that book. And I absolutely think it has a lot of resonance with our community, particularly because in Asian Pacific American culture, there's a lot of this collectivist attitude, right? It's, not just help yourself, but help your, really your family first and your community.
And it's all about that. And we know that even from being a part of a religious foundation growing up, and I also have been struggling with this concept of self care for Asian Americans, right? What does it mean? And I think that is such a liberating perspective on it because I also find healing through helping others and creating that space.
And you called it community care and I love that phrasing because it names, I think, what kind of work that you and I are trying to do, and it helps explain why we see it as not just about us, even though we have to start there, as you mentioned with your coming out story, which is so beautiful.
And thank you again for sharing that. And I could also just see, as you were retelling that I could see the emotion and the weight that had been lifted off when you were able to live in your truth. And I commend you for that. And I know it is something that is extremely difficult for many people, even in this day and age to do that.
So, I always want to take a moment and recognize that bravery. I also love what you said about existence is resistance. I think that particularly when we are in an intersectional or Asian-American identity, really struggling to live our truth as well... the mere showing up and existing and choosing this path is something that also, I feel we have to celebrate because it is something that Is really difficult work, as you said, and particularly, the issues that you're tackling are quite massive, and there's so much there - there's justice and LGBTQ and queer rights, social equity, climate change.
So I imagine that progress might feel slow or maybe non-linear at some times. So I'm curious, how do you personally deal with anything from disturbing events or setbacks and how do you find joy and practice mindfulness in your daily life?
Gregory: Yeah. I love this question and I love it because I think it's part of the ongoing work and part of the practice of finding the joy, taking the time for mindfulness and also like really reflecting on where you have control and where you don't. And I think that's been a huge practice for me, especially as I think about some of the kind of events or setbacks, even from the last year.
Right. When we think about the pandemic, when we think about the murders of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor and all the countless black and brown folks who have been lost to police and state violence. And and you know, to be honest, especially when you work in an intersectional framework I would be lying to say that there weren't lows, you know?
And and there weren't times where you kind of just feel like when it rains, it pours and and why, what is the universe trying to tell us with some of these events? And one thing that I've tried to remind myself as well is there are things that happen outside of my control.
Like I don't control police departments. I don't control government budgets. I can't control a virus and its ability to spread or not, or I can't control people. And to follow some of the guidance to figure out how we stop the spread of a virus.
And so that was a hard, but an important reminder about. Also how we spend our energy and some of the sometimes anxiety or the anxiousness that we feel when it comes to some of these. And so, for me, I find, I ground myself in my community. So when certain events or setbacks happen, I think about, okay, who are folks that could be impacted and who can I, who should I be checking in with?
Who should I be just seeing if there's ways that I could support or if there's anything that they would want? And so, following the uprisings of black folks and the movement for black lives I've checked in with a lot of my black comrades and siblings, like, Hey, things are tough.
I already had a sense, but I could imagine now there's a lot more folks are holding. So for me that was an important part was just to simply check in and touch base with folks. I find personally find joy in dance. There's something about the embodiment of movement that grounds me.
It's probably the one thing that can completely get me to kind of think to focus on my movement and on the music versus anything else. If you tried to ask me, like, what is something else that you could do to really completely focus your energy and your mindfulness and emotion.
It, there's probably nothing else outside of dance. And so I've been really intentional about how do I bring that in, into my work? How do I just dance? I'm in the shower, like in between meetings, like both formally and informally, like, yes, I can learn choreography as I could try to make choreography, but also just the role of music and just in life.
How am I bringing that in? And and one thing that I'm reflecting on, and one thing that I actually realized during the pandemic was that through a big portion of my professional career, actually that was actually a part of my identity that I like shied away from. It was, you know, if I'm a dancer, it's not professional enough.
If I'm a dancer, people will be like, well, how can you be a dancer, but also an organizer and a facilitator. And what I found out was it was actually one of my superpowers.
Vanessa: I love that.
Gregory: And people actually appreciated me bringing dance because people didn't really move their bodies. And, especially as someone who is mindful of like our holistic care and wellbeing and health, it actually pushed people and it allowed people to feel a different energy than they were normally used to.
And so I was like, wow, like, it's important to not only own this, but to actually actively and proactively use this super power to engage and to nurture folks. And then in that same vein I was like, and being a dancer actually helps me communicate different ways about issues that I care about: the injustices of the world.
And so I've been actually doing a lot more videos around me dancing, actually sharing some of like my political analysis or sharing thoughts on different issues that I care about, and that impact me and my people. And it's been a fun and interesting and different way than I normally have been that allows me to dance, but it also allows me to share some important messages and that's actually been some of the most well-received content that I've been creating.
And so for me, that was also the, another reminder. Truly, this is a super power. So how do you, how can you better and more intentionally use this, not only for your joy and for your mindfulness, but also in advancing social justice.
Vanessa: I love that! I mean, I've watched your Tik Tok videos and they are absolutely contagious.
Like, I feel like I want to continue the party after you stopped dancing. And I love that had this journey where you, weren't sure about bringing that part of yourself into your professional or maybe even your personal life, and then discover that it was your superpower. And I love how you phrase that because I think there's so much of that is so universal for many of us where we're afraid of a certain part of ourselves that's different.
And then we discover that that "different part" is our superpower. And even though it's a story that we've seen over time, it's something that it's hard to believe until you live it yourself. And I think that is so cool that you've used that really as a mode of expression too. Personally, I also enjoy dance and my, I guess flavor for the last couple of years has been Bollywood dancing because my husband's Indian and I got into like Bollywood movies.
And there's just a freedom of exploration of every kind of emotion in those films, even though they can be cheesy and everyone knows that, but you just kind of get a free pass to just feel every emotion and express it through your body. And it's something that I think is also kind of underplayed in terms of roles in mental health, because when we don't feel free to express ourselves in our body or with our voices, it's like an imprisonment, right? We don't feel good. We don't feel like we can be our true selves and it's really healing to find those outlets. And I think it kind of ties back to what you were saying before about community care, where we then not only heal ourselves, but figure out how we can heal others in this space.
Even if the space is, you know, 30 second Tik Tok video, or just providing those micro moments of healing for ourselves and the community. It really is incredible. And I love that you've kind of made it less formal, right? Like let's make it a bit more casual. Let's think about how it can, it doesn't have to be carved out into a one hour class or that type of thing.
Like it can be, right now. We can create a space for joy and also freeing ourselves to unleash those boundaries and say we can choose "right now" for joy. And I think a lot of us have been struggling with not just the pandemic and the racial injustice and also the racism against Asians.
It's been really tough for all of us. And I agree. I think the one good out of this is that we've been influenced to check up on each other. And we've seen that more than ever solidarity and community is what's going to get us through this. So I find that really powerful in terms of just reminding ourselves.
It's not just about us. We're not the only ones going through this. We are not alone. And if we reach out and check up on someone, chances are, they're also experiencing a lot of the same things and we can actually be there for each other in a meaningful way.
Gregory: Absolutely. One thing that you said that reminded me, you talked about Bollywood dance.
and I, for me, dance was actually the way I learned more about my own Filipino culture and about other cultures. So like I actually did Bhangra in high school.
Vanessa: Oh, so cool!
Gregory: I also did salsa and merengue. I did like the Vietnamese fan dance and I did step. So, like I just learned a lot about other people's cultures.
And like, I forgot it for a little bit, because I think I was trying to push it aside a little bit because of it not being professional. I forgot about all those experiences a little bit. And so, as I was reminded and I like actually went back and played some of the songs, we did dances too.
It brought me back to like, wow, there was so much joy, there was so much resilience. There was so much power in like me learning about my own culture through some of the dance, but also as an entry point and as an opportunity to understand other cultures and in some ways, understand the holes and gaps in society in ways that we could not only survive together, but thrive together.
And so for me, dance is, has been such a central part. And so now I'm just thinking about like the shows and the performances that we used to do and just how exhilarating they would be, and I' m excited about like, thinking about how do we bring that energy in and have that kind of feeling in times now.
Vanessa: Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for sharing that. I think it is really cool to be able to experience another culture through this very primal form of communication. And I think that in times of uncertainty getting back to that primal core is actually very important and very healing because it reminds us of the human spirit and what we're capable of, and that joy and sadness are part of our journey. And it's been immortalized in forms of expression, like dance and theater and books and movies. But what is happiness without sadness, right? What is joy without pain? And I think that the great thing about dance is that it actually celebrates both sides and it shows that there is that spectrum.
And it isn't just about experiencing happiness and being at the very top all the time, which I think sometimes we're tempted to ascribe to that belief system, particularly with social media, which just shows the highlights. Right. So we're not seeing the lows. And I think that's what isolates us more when we don't realize that.
So I love that freedom of expression in dance. I actually want to know more about Filipino dance and, what's your take on it and what do you think it reveals about the culture for you?
Gregory: Yeah, well, one of the first dances I learned was tinikling, which is a traditional dance that's done with bamboo sticks.
And I remember just learning about the origins of the dance and kind of the representation of kind of dancing through and not getting caught by the bamboo sticks. And and for me, it taught me that it was important to ground myself in some of this history and culture, because like, we can tell this, we can tell stories without words.
And that was a, such a for me, I was like, wow, this could mean a lot of different things. Like, yes, this is the stories that are passed down and this is what we've learned, but we can make it our own. And that for me was such a an important part of like understanding the role of dance, but also the role of how we shift and make culture especially bringing in kind of the current moment, the conditions that we are in and how we are experiencing them and how that could represent like our life and our lives.
So that's one piece. And another piece that I hold is that That there's a lot that's passed down, like verbally, like I think in white supremacist culture and in society, there is such a focus or emphasis on the written word, but many of the stories and many of the things that I will learn from my grandparents, my parents, my other family members came from talking story, came from sharing these stories.
And that was part of the journey for the dance. We were, we had to go and talk to our family, talk to folks who were experts in the dance and to kind of ask them questions and to kind of do that learning. And like, most of that was verbal. And that for me was like a reminder of like, oh, like, even if it's not written down, doesn't necessarily mean it's more or less valuable, but I learned that for people of color, a lot of things are passed down through word, through speaking, through storytelling and that for me was an important affirmation.
Cause I struggled, I feel like I struggled with my writing and that's something that I'm like growing into. And so for me that was like, okay, so like writing is one form of communication, but talking story and sharing stories, storytelling is another and dance is another.
And so it's not that I have a particular deficit, but I've been gifted and have the opportunity to leverage other different kinds of strengths and skill sets. And so, it grounded me in that way as well.
Vanessa: wow, I literally got goosebumps. I mean, I can completely relate in terms of having to reconcile the ways that you communicate, your family communicates, our culture communicates, with being an American, right. And in some ways, part of colonialism is putting oral histories- lowering them off that pedestal. And I think part of our journey is reclaiming that, right. Even starting with this podcast, it's about celebrating the ways to be a powerful communicator in ways that may not have been so traditional.
I kind of have a similar, but almost like reversed situation where I always felt writing came easily to me, but in my personal life, I felt like sometimes speaking was harder for me actually. And I would kind of get in my head and think like, well, they're going to look at me and they're going to think all these things about me and they're not going to listen.
Or I was always told you're too quiet. Or you need to speak up more. And I think a lot of that also was like internalized and external racism as well, but starting this podcast and really seeing that I could come into my own and I did have a voice, I had a voice that mattered, and a voice that could connect to others.
As you mentioned before, I'm going to keep going back to this community self care. It is so important and it feels great. Like that's, I think the other part of it too, is there is a joy to it. So I'm so happy to hear you share that and that it's helped you find other ways to communicate and also find ways to affirm your own abilities and your talents.
And again, going back to - it's your superpower, it's not your weakness. That's something I want to hold and really remember in my journey, because I know that it's not just true for me. I know it's true for many of us who have some sort of insecurity or whatever you want to call it. Right.
It's that thing that we're scared of, that we have some shame around and we are so scared what's going to happen when people find out about it. And then poof. Yeah, we discover that we come into our own and it is our superpower. So I thank you for sharing that.
Gregory: Thank you for being open and for helping me remind myself of some of these important lessons and for the chance to even share some of these things in this way. So thank you.
Vanessa: Yeah, of course. We've spoken a little bit about relationships before, and so I want to touch on that. And particularly in the pandemic, which I think shone a spotlight, whether we liked it or not into all of the relationships we had in our our homes, right, with our family, even with our own houses, all of a sudden everyone was remodeling their house, hated their interior.
So quite literally, and also figuratively with our social relationships. It thrust us into a space where we had to work harder actually to communicate with others. And we had to work harder to take care of ourselves and create space in our lives to process and cope with a very stressful, unpredictable and unprecedented time.
So now many of us are experiencing a transition back to some semblance of this post pandemic "normal life." That's really still not quite normal, but with that in mind, how can we advocate for what we believe in and practice healthy confrontation and boundary setting if needed in our personal and professional relationships?
And what do you think successful conflict management looks like for you? Whether with friends or family, colleagues or partners.
Gregory: So first I, it really resonates about this quote and unquote going back to normal, or I like to say like, going back where we were pre-pandemic, because I was aware of the injustices. And I think the pandemic itself actually just made things more, more noticeable and in people's faces with just how broken systems have been.
And especially for those who are oppressed and the most marginalized, I think those feelings were exponential and for many others, because they were many folks that were locked down and had to like, shelter in place. It also meant that they had to reckon with things that they didn't make the time for.
And because of busy lives, because of travel because they, like all that, they, you know, the ways in which capitalism makes us function. Could like sweep away some of those things. And so I just want to name that. and because of all the other things that then on top of that people are facing because of the pandemic, either they were isolated or they had additional care responsibilities or had to struggle with working from home, or maybe not working from home and still having to go in because somebody had to be the one that was still supporting folks and who were like mostly immigrants and people of color. And so I think there's a, there was a lot of tension in that people are wrestling with. And I think one thing, that I found important was like, this is an opportunity to reimagine and rethink how we are in community with each other and how we are in relationship with each other.
Yes, there is an element of collective care. Are folks getting the food and water that they need? Getting the healthcare that they need and if not, are there other ways they can get the support that's needed to navigate this pandemic? And it also really made me think a lot about conflict and harm.
I actually was supposed to go to three different weddings but because of the pandemic they got canceled and unfortunately two of the couples actually broke up and ended up not moving forward with the wedding for different reasons. But I think I share that because I think it was a reminder that like the work is important around communication and how we handle conflict and harm is one of the biggest ways that I think that we could really transform not only ourselves, but the societies and the systems and institutions that we live in.
And so I've been thinking a lot about what does it mean? How could we make - you described it healthy confrontation or another way I've heard it described as like, have generative conflict. And for me that was hard because I think I grew up in a world where we avoided conflict. We acted like conflict didn't exist.
And even if it was a little awkward, we would just kind of just keep it going. And I found out, like I realized just how unhealthy that was and not only unhealthy, but it meant that I had a lot of fun learning in terms of how I even talk about conflict and talk about harm that either I felt or received, or in some cases that I've done and it was very humbling to recognize that yes, while I may experience some of the harm that I believe that not only myself, but other folks will be in the position where they will cause harm, whether it's intentional or not. And how do we continue to create as in Tanya Lee says like principled struggle in how we are in relationship with each other.
And so there's this, I've been reading a lot from like, Dr. Mimi Kim of creative interventions. Mariame Kaba, other folks around this concept of community accountability and transformative justice. And how do we actually, being socialized in a punitive, a world where there's laws and you get punished for laws, people kind of take that into their relationships personally, like their romantic relationships, their familiar relationships.
And, as someone who is an abolitionist in training, I like to say that I am seeing the violence that prisons policing into our buildings have caused on people. Part of the reason why it's hard for people to be like, well, what do you mean defund the police? Is that we've been conditioned in this punitive system that, that says we need the police.
We need prisons. We need these things to hold law and order. And in order for us to understand that, we have to address the root in order for us to understand that we actually don't need those things. We actually have to transform how we are in relationship with our loved ones. And I, I'll be honest that like I've been going on a journey with my partner.
I've been pushing myself to engage in courageous conversations with my family, particularly my dad. I've been pushing colleagues and clients to think about ways to address conflict and harm outside of human resources department. And to really think about what does it mean to be building relationships toward trust and building relationships grounded in radical love for ourselves and for the people that we care about.
And that's been a hard journey, but I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about like what's possible. And I learned a lot about the small and simple things that we could do to be able to instill that kind of transformative change and work towards transformative justice, in different ways.
Vanessa: Oh, wow. I mean, thank you so much for sharing that. I think the words that really stood out to me was about radical love and transformation. And it is this very primal concept. But when we think about particularly for the BIPOC and queer community and even the environment, if the environment was a person, right.
It's been institutionalized that we face a lot of these prejudices and injustices from such a young age and a lot of it's seemingly some like subconscious or even unconscious. Right. And. It is a process of learning and unlearning for all of us. No matter where we sit on that spectrum, myself included.
So I do think that the great part though, is that there is this time now where as you mentioned, it's kind of magnified and brought into the forefront that okay, now is a great time. We're all seeing this. We were all seeing that there is a need to learn and unlearn and figure out what and how to approach this.
And I feel like we need your like book reading list after this. We need, like, Gregory's approved best-selling reading list. You know, all of these topics including mental health and transformative justice and healthy confrontation. And we could all benefit I'm sure, because I'm sure there are so many lessons that we can take with us too, within our personal life and with our professional life.
Gregory: Yes, I'm happy to share some of those resources that I found helpful, and maybe even find some ways to share some of the experiences that I've had both personally and with clients and partners around how they've tried to bring community accountability and transformative justice into their spaces as well.
Vanessa: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely think that a lot of us could benefit from learning about that. I want to ask, how do we model intersectional advocacy and allyship when it comes to mental health?
Gregory: Yeah. You know, I've been thinking a lot about this too, right?
I've been on my own mental health journey. I participate in personal therapy, individual therapy. I also do therapy with my partner. I've done a lot more journaling and I have tried to really integrate more like meditation. And breathing my mindfulness pauses and more of my work.
And I'm realizing just how much that is not a part of like a lot of more people than I thought's culture and way of being. And it I've actually been more intentional about sharing more about that I participated in therapy, of course, not necessarily sharing all the things that I talk about, but that, that I just, I tell people I just came from therapy or I am looking forward to my therapy session tomorrow.
And people are like usually taking it back than I am even willing to share it. And I just actually heard it from our friend the other day that, you know, they actually started therapy because I helped socialize that going to therapy was lot. Okay. And I didn't I, to be honest, I didn't even think that was the kind of potential impact that me just sharing that was going to have.
And for this particular individual who I thought was like strong, and a role model in many ways, was like I needed it. And after my first couple of sessions, I could see why now, like how it could be so transformational for you. And so I think the way that we can model it is by humbling ourselves.
To say, like even the ones you think that are the strongest or even the ones that you lean on the most need help too. And the reality is we all need help. And the more that we can create conditions where folks can say, look, I need help and needing help is okay. And these are the types of resources that I use, or I would recommend to be able to get the help that you need.
Cause once we help ourselves, we will be in stronger and better positions to help others. And that was, and that has been such a humbling and grounding experience for me, especially, admittedly as someone who was played very public roles, played roles where I held space and facilitated for folks who are holding a lot or who are on the front lines, that I was like, it's important that I actually named that like these conversations aren't easy and that it takes a lot of mental and emotional and sometimes physical or like, strength and energy from me to do this.
And I think so modeling is I think one way. And I think the other way is to actually recognize that modeling or taking the time and prioritizing our mental health also means that we are trying to create sustainable communities longer term. And I think because of how society and capitalism makes us think sometimes, we need to be on the go. And I think social media doesn't help with this either.
We need to be on the go, we need to be doing something all the time. We need to be feeling productive and I follow the Nap Ministry now and I'm a big fan because she, they are like lay down. Like, if you're tired and you need to take a quick nap, take a nap. Like why are you resisting a nap if your body is saying that, do it.
And so I've been also just practicing, like, okay, how do I listen to my body more? And how do I listen to the signs that it's telling me in the universe, the signs that the universe is giving me Which I, it's a practice and it's not something that I was used to. But as I've settled into it more as I have, like let myself not feel so tense more as I like leveraged and used these tools and resources I have a different kind of creative energy.
I have a different way of showing up for myself and for others. And I have a different grounded-ness that like allows me to walk with a different kind of clarity and alignment and intention and exist and put that kind of clarity, alignment, and intention which has been both beautiful, challenging inspirational sometimes emotionally straining, but necessary to kind of continue to build those cycles.
And so, modeling it and creating will also then create these sustainable communities where we could thrive.
Vanessa: Oh, I feel that to my core in so many ways. I would definitely want to comment on your experience with therapy and I myself have been in therapy for several years.
My partner's in therapy, we attend therapy together. We've really tried everything. And I also am really on a mission to normalize it. And I think that when you get help, it says that I am prioritizing my health. I am prioritizing my family and my community around me because when I'm able to heal and bring my best self to work every day and in my home every day, that makes your life better.
So it's really not just an investment in yourself. It's an investment in your family and your community and your partner, friends. And I love that you're sharing, even though it's casual and yes, let's make it casual. Right. we all need help, as you said, and that's okay. You know, it's acceptable for people to have personal trainers.
It's acceptable for people to have life coaches, and we should also make it acceptable for people to have therapists because we are very complex beings and we need help. We can't do it on our own. And I love that you brought up, really being present and mindful in terms of recognizing when you need to rest.
I really believe particularly in the line of work that we do that rest is resistance and we want to avoid burnout because we want to be here longer. We want, and we're doing very important work. That's going to sustain a community. So I also think that it is so important to be mindful of like, oh, I need to rest.
And I often find myself at those points throughout the week where I'm like, oh, it's three o'clock. I am crashing. And I've had admittedly, it's been hard to give myself permission to rest at that point. So I've had to. Work on that. But a good reminder is if I look at my toddlers, because if they are tired, they are crashing.
They are not asking me for permission and they are just going to fall asleep and they are not going to feel bad about it. And I feel like a lot of adulthood is just kind of unlearning all of these things we were socialized with as kids. It's like, no, you have to do it this way. You have to be this way and act this way and do things the way everyone else does them.
And then as an adult, we're like, well, well, wait a minute. Where did I learn this from? Why is it making me so unhappy? So I think that I love that mindful approach to just listening to your body when it's telling you I need to rest or it's saying, Hey, I like doing this. Let's do this again. You know, if it's dance or anything, right.
So I think that children can teach us these kind of like ironic lessons where we think they're the ones that need to be schooled. And we're like, oh, wait, let's look at them. Like they're living their best life all the time. And it doesn't mean that they're happy all the time. In fact, there is a huge spectrum of emotions that they go through on a daily basis.
But I do think that part of coming into our mental health journey is kind of unlearning all of those habits or untruths that we learned as kids.
Gregory: Yeah, no I actually tell people that I think we have more to unlearn than to learn because you know, when you take white supremacist culture, when you take capitalism, when you take, patriarchy and all of these different systems of oppression, like it's literally embedded into every institution when majority of the institutions and systems that we are part of. And so it's like, when you actually understand like, oh wow, like maybe it's not just me, it's because of the media I've consumed, it's because the textbooks teach me this, it's because I see this in schools.
Right. And on my workplace, like, there's constant kind of affirmations of sometimes the things that you need to unlearn. And so as I actually say like, wow, like every day I always think, okay, well, what is there something here that I need to unlearn or what's the thing that I need to shift or the thing that I need to think about differently.
And that's okay. Like, and to your point about listening to your body, I took my first nap as an adult and. Like, this was like a month or two ago and it was for like 20 minutes. So it wasn't even, it wasn't a long nap, but I took it and it literally was like, life-changing. I was like, wow, I can now tackle the rest of the things that I need to do.
Totally.
Vanessa: Totally. I am such an advocate of the power nap. Like, especially when I had newborn kids, like I could nap anytime, anywhere. Like I was so tired from just chronic lack of sleep. I was like, you give me a dark room or even a car I'm out, like I'm out and I'm going to enjoy it. And I'm going to wake up 10 minutes later, or 15 minutes later.
All of a sudden, I'm going to feel like, okay, I can do this. And I think that's also the shocking part, right. Is like how little time we actually need in that state to actually renew and recharge ourselves. Like we think, oh gosh, if I take a nap, two hours are going to pass and nothing's going to get done.
And so, thinking of rest as active, I think is also a great way to reframe it and to think about recharging our batteries. We can't pour from an empty cup and that's something that I've had to learn over and over again in so many aspects of my life. So I appreciate you bringing that up because it's yeah, it's super important.
So, thank you for sharing that. And I'm just so moved by everything we talked about today. I want to thank you for your generosity in sharing your journey, your experiences, your learnings, and also recognizing that we're all still going on journey, right?
It's never ending. So, thank you so much, Greg really appreciated you making time and space for this. And hope we can talk again soon.
Gregory: Thank you so much, Vanessa, for your thoughtful questions the way that you held space and I'm looking forward to continuing to build.
Vanessa: Thank you.