Breaking the Stigma: Neurodiversity and South Asian Mental Health
Podcast Season 2 Episode 3
“I thought therapy was a hardcore luxury for the rich”, says Mrinal Gokhale, Author of Saaya Unveiled: South Asian Mental Health Spotlighted.
Mrinal Gokhale shares how growing up as a bicultural, neurodivergent and "defiant" kid enabled her to become a game-changer in mental health. We explore what it means to be neurodivergent - which can span autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and even bipolar disorder, and what society can do to be more supportive. Join us as we unpack how stereotypes around gender, the Model Minority Myth and cultural habits like “sweeping it under the rug” may actually intensify mental health conditions and isolation. Plus: building confidence through belly dancing, Desi wellness traditions like ayurveda and pranayama breathing exercises, and blending East and West when it comes to health and nutrition.
About Mrinal:
Mrinal Gokhale is an author and speaker with a passion for the human brain. She uses her voice to help shift the narrative around health and wellness. She recently published Saaya Unveiled: South Asian Mental Health Spotlighted, which shares 11 true stories of second generation Indian, Pakistani, and Bangladeshi immigrants and how they navigate mental health in the West. Topics covered are stigma, identity, trauma, and access, along with the goal of promoting acceptance and knowledge around mental health between generations.
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Full Interview:
Mrinal Gokhale on Breaking the Stigma: Neurodiversity and South Asian Mental Health
Vanessa Shiliwala: Welcome to Thrive Spice, a podcast centered on the Asian American mental health experience while navigating career, family, wellness, and social empowerment. I'm your host, Vanessa Tsang Shiliwala, a business leader and entrepreneur, mother, and award-winning AAPI and mental health advocate. Join me as I invite diverse business and political leaders, entrepreneurs and creators to share their real raw mental health journeys, and practical advice on how they found their Thrive Spice: the joy that comes from finally owning our identity, power and worth. Also, I want to hear from you! Please follow me at Thrive Spice on Instagram for videos and more mental health tips.
Please feel free to send me a DM or voice note. And if you prefer to watch your podcast, check us out on YouTube or Instagram @thrivespice. The link is in the show notes. Lastly, don't forget to subscribe. All right, let's get ready to unpack some feelings and spill the tea.
Mrinal Gokhale is our guest today on Thrive Spice.
She's an author and speaker with a passion for the human brain. She uses her voice to help shift the narrative around health and wellness. She recently published Saaya Unveiled, a book that shares true stories of second generation, South Asian immigrants, and their mental health journeys. Topics covered are stigma, identity, trauma, and access, along with the goal of promoting acceptance and knowledge around mental health between generations.
Really happy to have you as a guest on our podcast. I'm so glad you reached out and shared your story with me. And I can't wait to share your story with, so many others who, uh, I think really will be inspired by your journey. So you're someone who described yourself as good at your job as a journalist. You have friends , you're very creative.
You're, you're a designer, belly, dancer, jujitsu junkie, occasional model. Someone who has this very rich life. And, you have also uh found in your journey that you're neurodivergent. And simple interactions like small talk can be a kind of awkward or painful. So I'm curious, what are your earliest memories of knowing that you were different? And can you share how your experience being neurodivergent affected your mental health journey?
Mrinal Gokhale: So my earliest experiences is of feeling "different" include things like in school,
having difficulty making friends. Wanting to be social, but not knowing how to do so. Having trouble with things like you said, like small talk. Like, simple engagement. Wanting human company, but not a lot of it. In class, things like being one of the only kids that was left without, um, like a partner for like group activities. Only being invited to things like birthday parties
if I was invited with the whole rest of the class, that kind of thing.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah, that all sounds painful. And I can definitely empathize with feeling left out and feeling different. And I know that you also grew up in the Midwest and I'm also from the Midwest. And there's just to add to that layer.
There's not a lot of Asian Americans out there. And so we tend to already feel like an amplified sense of not really belonging or not really being like everybody else. So I can only imagine, that was magnified by what you were going through. And can you share how you came to recognize that it was more than just, you know, feeling a little bit left out or different?
What was your journey like in kind of discovering this part of yourself?
Mrinal Gokhale: I would say that throughout my school career, so to speak. I just felt like, I think my instinct told me it was something a little bit more than things like being just shy. Or having to just try a little harder and all these other "justs" that people put onto me.
But I wasn't able to quite put my finger on it for obvious reasons. And my family never thought to ask a professional what it was. And neither did anyone in the school system. So then basically, I kind of just by chance took it on into my own hands when I became an adult and went to college.
Vanessa Shiliwala: So tell me a little bit more about that. What happened? Was there a certain, you know, experience or memory you have of that falling into place. And you deciding to seek help or some kind of diagnosis?
Mrinal Gokhale: Yeah. So I didn't even think that, I never even thought of therapy as like an option, like as a kid and stuff. Because it's like, the few people I knew went to therapy were like white American children. Cause maybe mommy and daddy forced them or the school system said your kid's disrupting my class, put 'em on Ritalin or don't bring 'em back.
Or forced by the juvenile court system, that kind of stuff. I thought therapy was like a hardcore luxury for the rich type of thing beyond that. However one day when I was in college about 20, 21 years old. I was just walking through the student union minding my own business. And then someone at one the tables said - Would you like to take a free depression screening?
And without knowing what I'm getting myself into, I simply said - Yes. And after that little assessment, they said, you seem to have high markers in the area of generalized anxiety disorder and social anxiety disorder. And they said - Our student clinicians are graduate students pursuing degrees in psychology. They are being supervised by real clinicians. Um, would you like to work with one for just $5 a session? And so that sounded like there was little to nothing to lose too. So I said - Sure! And from there it took right off.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Well that's amazing that that, um, resource was so accessible for you in college.
And I think what stands out to me, there is that to your point, it's so hard to feel like you have access as an adolescent. Both from, you know, the culture and what you see around you. And this idea that yeah, it's either for the really rich and privileged or for the kind of problematic children, you know, as more of like a, solution to kind of fix that. Rather than even just preventative or just, um, just normal right? It, can benefit everybody.
Mrinal Gokhale: Yeah. I agree.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Can you tell me a little bit more about your passions? You're this kind of multifaceted person. I would love to hear more about, you know, you as a designer and model and belly dancer and all of that. Um, can you tell us a bit more about that?
Mrinal Gokhale: So my belly dancing journey started partly in high school. Um, just taking a couple classes and taking some classes then, and then throughout college. And then I started really performing maybe in my mid twenties. And then, I actually haven't done anything since COVID, cause that really had put a damper on it.
At some point I wanna get back into it. I'm doing YouTube videos for fun. But ever since COVID, instead of belly dancing, I've been taking hip hop classes. I think that the reason I'm connected to dance as a whole, is because I'm a somewhat of a kinesthetic person in that way when it comes to things like artistic endeavors.
Yes, I have trouble with things like clumsiness and coordination and visual spatial issues. But I guess that, you know, when I was young. I would just get a rush from when I saw like, these sexy confident looking chicks in the music, videos, dancing. And it's something that I wanted to do for myself.
And I found out that, you know, I think that people's image of someone like a performer is someone who's outgoing, extroverted, highly charismatic. And that held me back initially. But then after taking some lessons and stuff. I learned that doesn't have to, it's not just one persona that fits, like, being a performer.
And I think that that's what I like is I feel like, performing is somewhat of a release to me and a confidence booster and a workout all in one.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Absolutely. That was so well said. I totally can understand that. And I do think that, um, I'm also a bit of an introvert. And I do think that when you're able to express yourself in different modalities. It is really empowering.
And it shows us that yes, you don't have to be the loudest voice in the room always to make your presence known. And so I really love that you've incorporated that into your own expression in your journey. I'm curious, you know, kind of reflecting on the book that you wrote. Congratulations by the way.
Mrinal Gokhale: Thank you.
Vanessa Shiliwala: This is such an important piece of work. I've really enjoyed reading it. It's called Saaya Unveiled. And it's a story of - anthology, really - of many different South Asian stories. And frankly, I could identify with so many of their journeys. And just bits and pieces here and there. And I found that, you know, I'm not South Asian myself. But my husband is and we have half Indian children.
And so there is this kind of like cultural learning that happens when you are in an interracial partnership.
Mrinal Gokhale: Yep.
Vanessa Shiliwala: And so you know, a lot of my own mental health journey has been impacted by literally being married to someone of that culture. But I did see a lot of reflections of not just South Asian culture, but also East Asian culture.
You know, in a lot of the kind of storylines and the stigmas and attitudes around mental health. And I'm curious, you know, how did that journey start? And was there a story or person who really resonated with you or even think about or their journey inspires you still to this day?
Mrinal Gokhale: Um, this started because, I took a free memoir writing course during quarantine. And the person who taught it, taught us about book publishing.
And then she sent us resources like publishing houses, as well as teaching us about self-publishing such as through Amazon Kindle. And I coincidentally shortly later met someone who published via Amazon Kindle, who did sell that process to me. And basically I just kind of thought about different things I'm passionate about.
And that I would like to write about. And one of those things was psychology and the human brain. And how that's kind of the root to why my human brain is the root to why I'm so fascinated. And want to logically and break down and understand human behaviors and emotions and why people do the things they do, what makes 'em tick.
And that made me think, you know, I don't know a lot of South Asians that have mental health journeys to share. I feel like if it is, it's probably just not talked about much and I would love to expose that if that's the case. So I literally just googled South Asian mental health, and all these organizations came up.
I did a search on hashtags on Instagram. And there was just so much content out there. And I reached out to orgs and said - I was wondering if you could put out submission calls, for people that have a desire to tell their story and for me to write it. And they did. And I got good responses from it.
Vanessa Shiliwala: That's wonderful. I love that you took this very open and curious and kind of research based approach to it. And I can relate to a lot of it. Because those are a lot of the same observations I had when I started Thrive Spice as well, as a podcast for Asian American mental health, is that, I knew these conversations were happening. And a lot of it was kind of like, whispered or behind closed doors.
This or even a lot of the examples of Asian excellence that were being amplified. Kind of like swept over the struggles or the mental health sacrifices really. Or conditions of many of the individuals who had to go through that to get to where they were today. And so I definitely see that in your book and in your journey. And it really resonated with me as well.
And I wonder, you know, did you form like a bond with any of the people that you interviewed or spoke to? Or is there a particular story or person that, you know, you just kind of keep with you in your heart, as you kind of move about your life?
Mrinal Gokhale: I would say that of the 11 individuals I spoke to, it's like, we're all connected on things such as social media and stuff.
And I, we did connect when we spoke to each other. I would say that, there's two that I, feel that there is, too a bit more than the others though. And I think it's because they do work in the community surrounding advocacy around South Asian mental health as well. And the first one is, the first one the story Dimple actually, in Chicago.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh my gosh. That story was so powerful. I legit started crying like at my kitchen table when I was reading it. It was, you know, these topics are heavy and they're tough, but they're so necessary. But you know, as someone who has experienced depression, who's someone who is a mother. It was very triggering for me in that way where I was just like, oh my gosh, like, I can't imagine this happening and the pain that everyone went through. And you know, even when they were trying to look for marriage partners, having that, you know, used against them.
That was just, Ugh, that just really got me. I was just like - Wow, that's so painful. But I agree with you that, it's really inspiring when we see that people kind of turn this pain into purpose. And use it to heal the community. And I'm wondering for me at least, I find some healing from doing this work.
I'm wondering for you. Does it bring up an additional layer of like healing or closure or, you know, do you feel like that's part of your mental health journey as well?
Mrinal Gokhale: Yes, it did give me a therapy in the sense that it taught me that there's other people like me. Aka other South Asian folks that have struggled with their mental health that have felt isolated from the community or communities that they've been around. And have always been taught to sweep it under the rug, unless it's severe or life threatening.
And at some point decided that that mindset is not gonna work for them and they want to change that. So it gave me a new community in a sense when it came to that. And especially being that I wrote the book in a time when finally things are starting to shift in South Asian culture. And more people are starting to talk about it.
And the other reason that I'm still, I'm quite connected to Dimple other than the fact that we're basically neighbors. Being that she lives in a state right next to me, is that I put her story first with a purpose. Because I felt as though, it was sad, but also highly meaningful.
And speaking to people like her, gives me the courage and the strength to continue to build up this courage to continue to tell my story bit by bit. And Karandeep is the other person that I'm in touch with a bit more. The person who bipolar and schizophrenic. Um, the reason she inspires me so much is, because I've come to realize that, when it comes to mental illness, that certain conditions are more looked down on than others. In the sense that things like anxiety and depression, everyone can relate to. Things like schizophrenia or bipolar just are off putting and scary to people. And I admire her strength to be able to tell her story publicly.
Not just because of what she has and the way it carries, but also coming from the double layer of coming from a South Asian family.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Of course. I agree. I think there's an extra layer of bravery. And, um, sourcing it from collective wisdom and strength from our community, only helps really. You know, stop the stigma of talking about mental health, whether it's mental illness or mental wellness or mental conditions, all of it.
It's all very important to this conversation. As a South Asian woman, obviously, you know, expectations around gender. And social norms can feel very overwhelming and kind of rooted in sometimes outdated cultural narratives about the role of women in society, work home everywhere. Can you share what's helped you in terms of empowering you to shift or challenge this narrative and advocate for yourself as well as others?
Mrinal Gokhale: I would say that number one, growing up as a kid. I think one way that I was another way I was different that I didn't mention to you before. Was that, supposedly from a really young age, I learned how to argue like four or five.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I love it.
Mrinal Gokhale: I think it's because I think that I was seen as argumentative and defiant whereas what it really was, was that if I was being told to do something. I wanted to feel logically connected to why I was doing it.
Vanessa Shiliwala: A hundred percent, a hundred percent.
Mrinal Gokhale: And I think the difference between me and neurotypical kids that I've seen is that, neurotypical kids initially do what's asked for them.
And then at a certain age, then where they start to grow up is when they start to say - Okay, this needs to make sense to me, if I'm gonna do it.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Mrinal Gokhale: This doesn't make sense to me, I'm gonna do something different. Whereas that was kind of my attitude from day one.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
Mrinal Gokhale: So that's number one, my different way of learning and processing. I think gave me the pre-start to becoming somewhat of a game changer when it comes to mental health. And then also I would say the other piece is having written this book and meeting, as I said, people who are like me. And therefore not feeling so lonely in this fight. And having other community that have the same mission as me that I can collaborate with and make a greater impact to it.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I think cultivating that skill from a young age is, hyper critical. And I think for everyone neurodivergent neurodivergent or not, it's very important. I'm a parent of two daughters and this is something that I'm very aware of.
Because I can see that, this starts so young. About what makes a good child and what makes a bad child and challenging, um, authority, uh, generally is not favored, um, for children. And so it's something that I'm, you know, actively deconstructing all the time. And I think it's really wonderful that you cultivated that at a young age. And I think it's gonna continue to serve you well.
Hey everyone. We're going to take a quick break in return after this brief message. We all know how important mental health is, but it can be hard to know where to start or how to create a mental health practice that works for you. Mental health affects us in the workplace at home and everywhere in between Americans are facing record amounts of anxiety, depression, and panic attacks.
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For example, Asian Americans are more prone to mental health issues. Get three times less likely to seek help than Caucasian counterparts. That's why I created Thrive Spice Media, a mental health podcast and platform. My mission is to normalize mental health journeys, provide a safe space to share resources and stories and promote a more inclusive world that centers intersectional communities, including women of color, AAPI, BIPOC, and LGBTQIA+ communities lately.
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What are some ways we can be more inclusive and mindful of those, who are neurodivergent in our work and in our personal lives, in our communities?
Mrinal Gokhale: So I guess it depends what your definition of neurodivergent is. I think from what I understand, it started off talking about neurodevelopmental disorders, such as autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, and VLD.
But then also I've heard people that are like bipolar identify as neurodivergent. So maybe neurodivergent and mental health are all under one umbrella based on how you're talking about it. And if that's the case, I think that, we are again in a time where things are slowly starting to change in that. Um, employers, especially since the pandemic, are becoming a bit more sensitive to people when it comes to their mental health. When it comes to things like hybrid work days, allowing mental health days.
Um, allowing like, employee assistance plans to seek things such as therapy and counseling. So we need to continue on that. But we still do have a long way to go. And I think that, um, education around this needs to start earlier. Which I think is slowly starting to change in the school systems.
So, as I said before, being that I'm a nineties baby. The mindset when it comes to disorders and disabilities and special needs is, you either you have ADHD or cognitively or intellectually disabled or you're okay. In a sense. So I think that because things such as gender such as ethnic background and the Model Minority Myth held me back from being diagnosed both by academics, both in the school system, as well as in my family.
So I think more education around, what different conditions could look like outside of the stereotypical norm needs to be pushed out there. I think while I don't think it's good to over diagnose people. I also don't think that the solution is to only give precedence and diagnosis to the "severe" disorders. Or the ones who are struggling most outwardly.
I think the solution is to develop more accurate diagnostic tools.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I think that's such a great idea and I, can, um, I really think that neurodivergent is really the next frontier of mental health in terms of developing own awareness and education. As you said around, what does that look like? What does that feel like?
What are some assumptions or stereotypes that people have about you that you'd like to debunk. Or common, you know, things that happened to you or said to you that, um, yeah, you would, you'd like to challenge or correct?
Mrinal Gokhale: So I talked a little bit earlier about how things like having social anxiety and being an introvert made me think initially and made others probably around me think that, I can't do things like dancing isn't my environment.
That's something that I've obviously challenged and done quite well.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Good for you.
Mrinal Gokhale: Um, I think that the model minority myth, prevented me from getting professional help that I needed for my struggles. So when it came to my social emotional learning struggles, as well as academic struggles in school. The problem, I had issues with things such as being messy and disorganized, not following directions, needing instructions, repeated a lot.
And missing assignments. Um, so I have highly educated parents, which thankfully got me through school when it came to giving me the one-on-one help that I needed to succeed. But also I was shamed a lot, both in the school system, as well as by family. And I think that has to do with the Model Minority Myth. For why, um, maybe my family wanted to be in denial and not seek help. Or everyone's just so used to a neurodivergent child being a male and who either has language difficulties or disrupts the class all day long.
And if you don't fit that mold, then your issues are self correctable.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Interesting. Interesting. Do you feel like that's kind of rooted in, maybe ADHD being kind of the first of the neurodivergent spectrum to kind of gain a public stage? Maybe even like back in the nineties or early two thousands.
Mrinal Gokhale: Yes, I think it has to do with the surge of cases, like several years ago, as you said.
And with primarily males getting diagnosed with it and people getting wrongly diagnosed with it as a result, and overmedicated with it. And I think that, um, and then same and with autism, despite overwhelming studies showing that females definitely have it too. That boys continue to be over or be diagnosed more than girls, I should say.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Interesting. Do you feel like it presents differently across genders or is it simply a stereotype that is incorrect?
Mrinal Gokhale: So from the things that I've heard. Some people have suggested that females are more image conscious and better at "masking" and act out last.
When it comes to ADHD, they might, um, maybe I think some suggest that females have the inattentive type more. And obviously the inattentive type is more, um, it's less obvious than the hyperactive type. Because I think that this goes across all disorders. That if you're not directly inconveniencing someone else you're labeled as "non-severe" or "high-functioning" and therefore aren't taken seriously.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Interesting. Yeah, those are such salient points. And I do think it, does speak to kind of these, um, stereotypes or expectations of women and, gender does play a role.
What helped you kind of accept love and appreciate yourself as the unique, wonderful person you are?
Mrinal Gokhale: I would say that, it's definitely a journey that I'm still working towards. However, I would say that things such as, being in a good environment in terms of being around the right people.
Both in terms of your family, your friends circle, as well as your employment circle. Is very helpful too. I would say that, in terms of being around people who accept and love your "quirks" or differences. And who you can give that same thing to in return. Being able to get, um, a diagnosis.
I know that, the stereo or the typical mindset is when people get diagnosed with something or have a child that gets diagnosed with something. They see a life sentence in the dark.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm.
Mrinal Gokhale: Whereas I had zero diagnosis, until I was a grown up. And I see any diagnosis as a flicker of light in that dark as an opportunity to learn more about myself.
Why I do the things I do, why I struggle the way I struggle, why systems may not be designed in a way to support me. And hopefully change that so that it does support me as well as individuals like me. And to be able to find those support systems that do just that.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I so admire that narrative. Because I feel like you're really flipping something that's been viewed as negative.
And as you said, kind of like a death sentence. Or something to be deeply ashamed about into something that's actually a beacon of light. Into understanding yourself, understanding and loving yourself really, right? Because it's just understanding your quirks and what makes you wonderful and different.
And I think that's really another sign of resilience. That I really congratulate you on. Because I know it's not,
Mrinal Gokhale: thank you.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Not easy to do, given everything out there.
Mrinal Gokhale: And one of the reasons I wrote the book is that you'll see that even though. When it comes to mental health, disorders. They're not considered "fixable" and I don't know if I may have accidentally conveyed that in some of my stories. But I'm hoping that as a result of reading my book, it gives more people hope in. And then thereby destroys the stigma where people, maybe parents or something reading it. Drop the mindset that they should avoid sending their child to a counselor or psychiatric evaluator solely to avoid slapping a label onto them.
Vanessa Shiliwala: A hundred percent. I really feel that that is also intertwined with a lot of the South Asian attitudes around, "Okay, if we don't label it, it doesn't exist." Because living in denial is easier sometimes. But then really the only person who's hurting and in pain is the person who needs help. So that's really the tough part about it.
I know you hate small talk, but I'd love to just incorporate a couple of questions, just for our listeners to help to get to know you a little bit better. And for you to just kind of share some things that are bringing you joy in your life. What is your Thrive Spice? Something that helps you cultivate joy and peace and power and self love in your own mental health journey?
Mrinal Gokhale: Since I've tried almost everything under the sun, I don't think that I can tell you just one.
Vanessa Shiliwala: That's okay.
Mrinal Gokhale: I think I've done a pretty good job conveying how dancing is one of those spices.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Absolutely.
Mrinal Gokhale: I would say another Brazilian jujitsu. I didn't talk much about that. But that's another thing I just kind of fell into and I enjoy doing. Um, so the way I learned it is more for, in a self defense format than a fighter format.
And I would say that it's my Thrive Spice because it gives me more confidence. It shows me that even though I'm this five foot tall, 115 pound Indian girl. That that doesn't mean I'm not capable of carrying myself and defending myself.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Amazing. I love that.
Mrinal Gokhale: Another one of my Thrive Spices is, I'm one of the few people I know who has benefited from both Eastern and Western medicine.
And I see them as equals too. Anything that helps me, I see, I'm proud about. Despite the fact that other people may say that it's something you shouldn't talk about. So I have benefited from psychiatric medicine in the past, as well as various Eastern remedies. Such as, I have a very precise diet that I follow, as well as supplements that I take. From time to time I engage in Eastern Remedies.
I engage in things such as detox treatments in dietary and holistic centers. For example, I get a massage, like one to two times a month to help with my tension. I get a facial maybe a few times a year. So a lot of things.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Great. Yes, it does take a lot. and I love that you've explored so many modalities and also embrace East and West.
We don't have to choose, we can pick what we like. And I'm curious, you know, what kind of Eastern methods or modalities have you been. You know, you mentioned like holistic, do you mean like ayurveda or is there something else that, um, you mean?
Mrinal Gokhale: So for example, every morning when I wake up, before I go to work. I spend about 10 minutes in my bed doing pranayama breathing exercises, which stems from yoga.
Mm-hmm.
Both fire breathing, followed by alternate nostril breathing. And I find that it debloats me and also kind of wakes me up a little.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh, cool.
Mrinal Gokhale: Um, to go to work every day.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Hmm. I love that.
Mrinal Gokhale: So another one, when I was suffering from low thyroid a few years ago and I lost some hair. One good important thing I did was see a vital nutrition center and get a hair mineral analysis done to see what I'm deficient in.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Interesting.
Mrinal Gokhale: And I didn't sign up for their detox program. But that helped me to shift my diet and it helped me to implement supplements that helped to address some of those deficiencies. In quarantine, I hired a personal trainer because I was having some weight gain. And this trainer introduced me to an app called my fitness pal. Which you enter goal weight, and then they tell you what macros to hit, how many macro calories to eat per day.
The moment I started obeying what that app said, the extra pound started coming off and I still use it from time to time. But that taught me how to eat, not just healthly, but in the right proportions.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm.
Mrinal Gokhale: And after a few months doing that, I intuitively just gauged an ability to eat more balanced and I've kept the weight off ever since.
And then I mentioned massage, I do at least one time massage a month.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Nice.
Mrinal Gokhale: Um, to help my tension. I have hypermobility syndrome, which is just a fancy way of saying that I'm double jointed.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh, great.
Mrinal Gokhale: So it's when your joints are loose and your muscles have to work harder to like maintain a proper posture and stuff like that.
So massages also followed by weekly Pilates sessions are helping me immensely with that pain.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Wow. You've developed a very well put together routine. And I definitely aspire to have that. That's amazing. And I love that you've really incorporated so much into it. What's something about South Asian culture that gives you joy or a sense of pride? Or do you have a favorite, like Desi celebrity that you look up to or find inspiration from?
Mrinal Gokhale: I would say that in my bicultural journey, in terms of being able to balance two cultures. Some things that I felt particularly drawn to in Desi culture are some of the ayurvedic as well as traditional vegetarian recipes that I implemented in my diet. And then in terms of celebrities, I would say that Padma Lakshmi is one that I like. Kamala Harris is one that served as a role model for me. At the risk of sounding overly political.
Vanessa Shiliwala: not at all.
Mrinal Gokhale: I would say that, um, while I have a willingness to admit that I don't agree with every decision she's ever made.
I would say that seeing an Indian female run for president and even just work in politics as a Senator. That gets to make it big and actually be on TV for the work she does, um, inspired me in that. Um, growing up, I didn't have that representation in terms of everyone in my family was like a doctor engineer, software programmer, whereas I liked writing and it made me feel lonely.
And I think that when people see these South Asian, um, women and men being able to do different things. It'll inspire other people in our community that they can be the same way too. So outside of the celebrity world on Instagram itself. I've met and seen profiles of so many South Asian celebrities doing things such as opening up businesses for everything from counseling to hair care, to cooking, to clothing and all beyond that. Which I would've never expected when I was little.
And that's something that makes me smile for sure.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Absolutely. I completely agree with that. I think it's wonderful to see how representation's really expanded. And it's hard for us to be what we cannot see. So when we are able to see others who look like us or who have similar journeys, it's really powerful.
So I'm also, you know, a Padma and Kamala fan. And I think that it's really wonderful that, um, they continue to kind of break the box of what it means to be, you know, a South Asian, as you said, bicultural woman in this country today. Um, we both grew up in the Midwest. And, um, curious, do you think there is a difference between Midwestern South Asians or Desis versus East Coast or West Coast Asians?
how has growing up in the Midwest impact your lived experience?
Mrinal Gokhale: I would say that, ethnic background aside, um, when it comes to different regions of the US comes different cultures in a sense.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Sure.
Mrinal Gokhale: I think that Southern culture is vastly different from Midwest culture and Eastern and Western culture.
For example, and these things definitely impact people in terms of their likes, their dislikes, their interests. What language and lingo they use, that type of thing. And then it can also perhaps have an impact in this context on, you know, how much exposure to other fellow South Asians and community you received. And the messages that drilled into your head, both good and bad about your native culture.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Totally. Totally. Yeah, for me personally, um, there was a small community in the Midwest. But it was very much, um, you know, and I know this is reflected in Desi culture too. But like what will people think? Or, you know, sometimes there's a lot of gossip and there's a lot of judgment and competition amongst. You know, there are benefits, obviously.
It's great to have that community as a resource. and I'm still friends with some of the people to this day that I grew up with in that community. But at the same time, did you experienced any of that, where it just felt like a little bit, you know, judgemental? Or you felt like some things were being perpetuated that weren't healthy?
Mrinal Gokhale: Yes. And I think that's a common theme found in my book too, regardless to where people came from. I along with they were taught that public perceptions incredibly important growing up. And I do think that, that's one thing that contributes to the mental health stigma. And then also it could put some notions in people's heads. That the needs of the family or the desires of the family for you are more important than that, of what your intuition is telling you, you need for example.
and I grew up in a white American suburb and in the most segregated city in the entire United States, too. so I had little to no Indian fellow Indian children in my school. And however, there's like a Hindu temple from which, um, there was like a circle that we would all know each other.
And maybe earlier when I was growing up would spend more time than when as I got older, for example.
I think that, um, so developmentally I was taught that bicultural children or children of immigrants, initially may start to reject their native culture growing up. But then in younger adulthood and beyond, be like - Okay, I want both cultures in my life.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Right.
Mrinal Gokhale: I wanna balance both. And that's exactly what happened to me.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes, I can relate to that a lot. I think, you know, I've seen that journey play out for so many people. And to some extent for myself in waves. Like it can happen a number of times where I kind of go towards it.
And then, you know, I take a step back and then I go towards it again. And I think, you know, some, a narrative that's been kind of amplified throughout this podcast is that, sometimes our cultural identity is fluid. Just like, you know, gender and sexuality can also be fluid and that's something that's completely okay.
and we're, you know, we don't have to worry about being Asian enough or American enough or whatever it is. And that's the freedom that we should really seek for ourselves. I'm curious, you know, did you encounter any like religious stigma when it came to mental health conditions or neurodiversity?
Mrinal Gokhale: I don't know about so much about religious. But cultural, absolutely. Being that I was taught that public perception's extremely important. And that I was taught growing up that I should tell other people that I have nothing short of straight A's for example, in school. Even though that was not the case.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm.
Mrinal Gokhale: And I think that that also prevented me from seeing a professional for my struggles and that kind of stuff too.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah, well, you know, I guess it's so funny to me to hear that. Cause I know that, you know, being that straight A student that, you know, All Star, Harvard, Stanford, Ivy league. There's so much pressure in that Model Minority Myth.
And part of us wants to believe that's so badly for ourselves. But I do think there's other ways to define success for ourselves. And you certainly are a great example. I can see, obviously you're highly intelligent and you are very accomplished. And you know, you did it your way. And you found a way to shine your light in a way that was specific to who you were and play to your own strengths.
And I think that's so admirable. And I think that it's wonderful that you are speaking up on behalf of yourself and other South Asians and people who are neurodivergent. It's very important to keep uplifting this message and showing to your point that, it's not, you're not alone.
And that so many others are going through this. I've found that in my journey as well. The more we talk about it, the more people come to us and say - Oh, you know what, I've actually been going through this too. Or I know someone has been going through this. And so it is very important to put that energy out there.
Last question, uh, what's your favorite comfort food or favorite memory around food?
Mrinal Gokhale: I would say that, my favorite comfort food, I'm big into chocolate. I've always been a chocoholic and I always have some chocolate right next to me at my desk every morning to eat. I'm figure why not do it in the morning rather than at night. Have too much sugar intake and be awake all night.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Good point. Good point. And what's something your friends say about you that no one expects from you?
Mrinal Gokhale: If I had to put it a certain way, I would say they would kind of call me, Well A: maybe if a person doesn't know me very well, they would be surprised to hear that I'm neurodivergent, but that's a given. Maybe another thing is that I'm an introverted extrovert.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh, me too. Those are the best kinds of people.
Um, that's wonderful. And then do you have any resources that you would recommend for anyone who is kind of navigating this journey or curious about learning more about whether they may or may not be neurodivergent? Or if they could help someone who they know friends or family who, you know, might be in need?
Mrinal Gokhale: I would say do as much self studying as possible to learn about yourself, as much as possible. So you have all the tools to be, and information to advocate for yourself the day that if, and when you do find a professional. And are able to be very direct about what it is you need, what it is you're struggling with.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I love that. Thank you so much.
Mrinal Gokhale: And maybe try to find someone in your community if possible. If that's what's right for you, to be able to connect with. And ask yourself also, how do you best learn and what type of an individual that I work with, would I have the best chemistry with?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Hmm, I like that. That's great.
It's like having an accountability partner in your journey. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much Mrinal I've really inspired by a lot of the stories you've shared, not only in the book. But today here with us on the podcast. And I hope you continue to find the healing and support that's been helping you. Kind of be an inspiration and uplift an entire community.
With your stories that you've shared and the wisdom from your own experiences. So thank you again. And I hope you continue to, um, find the healing and care that you deserve.
Mrinal Gokhale: Thank you very much for having me on your show. I enjoyed talking to you.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Thank you so much Mrinal. Take care.
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