The “Busy” Trap: Dr. Jenny Wang on Navigating Anxiety, Anger, and Uncertainty
Podcast Season 2 Episode 4
What happens when society is OK with Asian women feeling anxious - but not angry? Perhaps we find comfort with hyperproductivity - until it leads to anxiety, burnout, and rage.
“Busyness is an addiction to urgency,” says Dr. Jenny T. Wang, PH.D, a Taiwanese American psychologist, founder of @asiansformentalhealth and author of Permission to Come Home. We talk about creating healthy spaces for anger, untying our worth from our productivity, and why Dude Tribes might be a step in cultivating positive masculinity and community healing for Asian men. As children of immigrants and parents, we discuss why AAPI youth suicide prevention is a multi-generational effort - not just about Gen Z.
Plus: our favorite Taiwanese snacks, traveling with young kids, and daily habits for a brighter morning routine.
About Dr. Jenny Wang, PH.D:
Dr. Jenny T. Wang is a Taiwanese American clinical psychologist and national speaker on the intersections of Asian American identity, mental health, and intergenerational and racial trauma. Her professional mission is to destigmatize mental health within the Asian community and empower Asian Americans to prioritize their own mental well-being. She spearheaded the Asians for Mental Health therapist directory (www.asiansformentalhealth.com) to connect individuals with culturally reverent mental health care for Asian American diasporas. She created the Instagram community Asians for Mental Health (@asiansformentalhealth), where she explores the unique ways in which Asian American identity impacts our mental health. Her first book, Permission to Come Home: Reclaiming Mental Health as Asian Americans was published by Grand Central Balance in May 2022. She is a mental health advisory member of Wondermind and The Mental Health Coalition.
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Full Interview:
The “Busy” Trap: Dr. Jenny Wang on Navigating Anxiety, Anger, and Uncertainty
Dr. Jenny Wang: Busyness is an addiction to urgency. Urgency gives us a sense that I can't rest. I'll rest when I'm dead. And then that creates a sense that none of our true inner needs are ever being met. When you realize that the world doesn't fall apart when you're not living in urgency, the anxiety starts to fall away. You're like - Oh, everything's okay. We're still here.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: The kids are still happy and fed and doing their thing. And your work email is still there. But nobody's sending you these nasty emails saying you didn't respond in 24 hours. You actually realize that, that slower pace is possible.
That is the gift. You might realize you're sleeping better and you see your world more clearly. And you're thinking with so much more creativity and innovation, that is a byproduct, not the purpose of rest. And that's when your worth says - I'm still here and standing and valuable and worthy.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Hey everyone. It's Vanessa. Welcome to Thrive Spice, a podcast centered on the Asian American mental health experience while navigating career, family, wellness, and social empowerment. I'm your host Vanessa Tsang Shiliwala, a business leader and entrepreneur mother of two, and award-winning AAPI and mental health advocate.
Join me as I invite diverse business and political leaders, entrepreneurs, and creators to share their real raw mental health journeys, and practical advice on how they found their Thrive Spice: the joy that comes from finally owning our identity, power and worth. Please follow me @thrivespice on Instagram for videos and more mental health tips.
We're also on Facebook. Please feel free to send me a DM or voice note. I wanna hear from you! And if you prefer to watch your podcasts, please check us out on YouTube or Instagram @thrivespice. The link is in the show notes. Lastly, don't forget to subscribe. All right, let's get ready to unpack some feelings and spill the tea.
We have a really special guest here today on the podcast, Dr. Jenny Wang, PhD. She is the founder of the Instagram account @AsiansforMentalHealth and also the author of a new book, Permission to Come Home. And she's also been a personal inspiration and hero of mine, even before I started Thrive Spice.
So it means a lot to me that we were able to have this, um, really deep conversation where we were able to be raw and vulnerable and honest, and talk about a lot of issues that I know are hot topics in our community. Side note, I'm pronouncing Dr. Jenny Wang's name the phonetic way that I grew up pronouncing it as a Taiwanese Chinese American.
I know some people pronounce it Wang. Um, whether it's Dr. Jenny Wang/ Dr. Jenny Wang, um, I guess it's personal preference, but, that's just why I'm using the pronunciation that I feel is authentic to the culture that we come from.
Dr. Jenny Wang earned her undergraduate degree with honors from the University of Texas in Austin, her doctorate in clinical psychology at the University of Texas Southwestern medical center in Dallas, and completed her post-doctoral training at Duke University Medical Center. In addition to speaking engagements and writing, she has a thriving private practice in Houston, Texas, with a specific emphasis on racial identity development, social justice, and cultural reverence. You can check her out @asiansformentalhealth on Instagram.
And I highly encourage you to check out her new book, Permission to Come Home, a crucial resource for Asian Americans, immigrants, and other minorities and marginalized people to practice mental and emotional self care. Hi! So good to see you.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Yes. So lovely to meet you as well. I've seen you kind of through the social media spaces, but it's always different when you see them kind of face to face so.
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure, for sure. Um, yeah, it's weird cause like you feel like you kind of know the person, but at the same time, it's a little strange when you finally meet, you know, whatever version of face to face this is now. But yeah, I've been a long time fan. So I'm really humbled and honored to be meeting with you today. And I'm just so grateful for, um, the time and generosity and just the body of work you put in for our community. So, um, quite frankly, when I started my own journey advocating for Asian American mental health a year and a half ago, I felt like you were the only face out there that, you know, kind of looked like me and had, um, you know, the background of being Taiwanese and Chinese American and that was really inspirational. So thank you. It means a lot for me to be meeting with you today and just so excited to share more of your journey with our listeners. So thank you again and congratulations on the launch of your first book, Permission to Come Home.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Thank you.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I actually just finished it like late last night and it was so moving. It's really a masterpiece and, um, I love that you've woven in personal anecdotes and research and expertise and these very thoughtful prompts and questions, that really help us all under understand how to kind of wayfind through this- it's difficult inner work that we're doing.
Um, and how you formed your understanding and expertise on mental health from an Asian American perspective. Particularly in the spaces of, you know, I was reading the chapter last night on the third space.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Shiliwala: And I've never heard it articulated that way, where I have personally have family in Taiwan in Hong Kong and Singapore and really the full diaspora.
And my parents came here to America as graduating college students. And, you know, they came to Milwaukee, Wisconsin. There weren't really any Asians around. So I grew up in a very non- diverse environment.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Shiliwala: And it was really empowering to see that kind of, just delineated in that chapter. But there is a sense of grief and loss of really having to exist between so many spaces and assimilate. And I remember some of my first memories are really just how to be comfortable in a white space and how to make them comfortable with me. So that was really powerful to just hear and see that.
So again, thank you. Um, but I'd love to start. If you can tell us a little bit more about your personal journey and starting Asians for Mental Health. And when did you realize it'd become a movement and what has surprised you about its impact with the community it's created?
Dr. Jenny Wang: So I started the account in September of 2019. And it was really kind of what you described earlier. There was this sense that there was mental health being discussed, but it was always taking on a very kind of Western lens. And so I think it really was born out of frustration. It was kind of like why isn't this being discussed? Because in my own mental health, in the mental health journey of my clients, there was so much granularity that was not being brought to the surface.
And so I started the account really thinking that I would just have, you know, a couple friends and family follow me. But it was something that was almost a really safe space, which is kind of ironic, because it's a very public space, you know. I don't have any other open accounts aside from that one. And I think what was really powerful was people, you know, as they started to resonate with the posts, as they started to share in the comments, there was this sense that I'm not alone.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jenny Wang: That there were all these people who felt similar ways. And for the longest time, many people thought it was just them. It was a singular experience. There was something off with me and how I was perceiving my world or how the world perceived me. And yet, all these people were sharing almost my story.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Right.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And I think that was something that really started to create the momentum. And I don't know that I would call it a movement. It just feels like a community, honestly.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jenny Wang: You know, I think the most beautiful kind of touching comments are when people say - Hey, I've been there.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And I've been able to walk to the other side of it and there's hope there and there's healing. And I think when people can see that, and especially in the Asian community where so much of our experience is perhaps masked.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Or we're trying to save face.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Knowing that somebody else has been through depression, their own struggles with suicidality or abuse, really hard topics for our community to speak about.
I think that offers us hope. And I think it all also gives us a chance to destigmatize mental health in a really tangible way, right? We're not necessarily, you know, not everybody's gonna write a book, not everybody's going to make a movie about their mental health struggle. But I think sharing it in this forum is a small incremental way that we're moving the dial on mental health in our community.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I think what was so powerful was seeing that vulnerability modeled and having a really poignant topic kind of brought forth, at least from my experience of being involved in your community. And it's been such a privilege, because I feel like anytime one of your posts comes up, I was like - How did she know that's exactly what I'm struggling with right now?
Like things that I have never been able to name. It was really just surprising I guess, I was like - Wow, I have never felt this connected to the pulse of a community in terms of you write something about, you know, whether it was intergenerational trauma or our own recovery from, you know, releasing ourselves from the expectations of productivity or tying that to our worth.
And I was like - Wow, this is exactly the boat I'm in right now. So it is to your point really helpful to see others open up and show that - Hey, me too, I'm also going through this. And while our stories are not a monolith, I think to your point the shame or the saving face part, that really has prevented us from opening up because it's perceived as, you know, weakness or someone might gossip about me or something or this might get back to my community.
So I think modeling that, I think took a lot of courage and I think a lot of us appreciate that because you're able to model and name that.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Yeah, I would say that, you know, even from the beginning of the count, it was really terrifying, right? Because you are being visible, right? Which is one of the things I talk about all the time and it is still a complex struggle for me.
And I've written this book and shared all these personal vulnerable stories. And I still get kind of panicked to think that people are reading this. And what does that mean in terms of how they view me or my family or our community? And so it is scary. And yet, I'm reminded each time that if we don't do that ourselves, then how can we ask other people,
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: To move in that direction?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Absolutely.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Um, so I think that it surprises me how much the community gives me the courage, right? Like that when they are courageous. I'm like - Okay, I'm not alone in that.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And it helps me then show up without the mask as much as I can.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes.
Dr. Jenny Wang: You know?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes, of course. And we notice it. That authenticity is felt. And I can definitely relate to that, because I started the podcast after dealing with my own mental health struggles and seeing it affect a lot of our people in our community and after the Atlanta spa shootings and the rise in anti-Asian hate crimes. I felt compelled to really a bias for action for right now, there was an urgency rather than just having it be like - Oh yeah, this is something we struggle with us like, the time is now. And it still even then took me really probably six months for me to come out about my own mental health journey. And I did it with another Asian American mom who had also gone through postpartum depression and together we were able to open up together and kind of, share different perspectives on that journey.
And it was so healing. And yet I remember when I first published the podcast episode. I started shaking and I like wanted to hide somewhere in my house or something, because I was so scared. I was like - What are people going to think? Am I going to lose opportunities? Am I going to be thought of differently? And instead, I just had actually other moms and listeners reach out to me and say - Hey, I actually haven't really been able to speak about this or even identify that this was what I was going through.
But I also went through the same thing. And that was so beautiful to me because cracking ourselves open is a really messy nonlinear process. And it takes a lot of courage even for someone who is in the mental health space to be so vulnerable and share. Because yeah, everything in our training has trained us to just shove it deep down inside and not open up about it because we're scared and we don't want to face, um, the retaliation. I think in a lot of ways I let it weigh on my worth.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Um, that, oh, how could I have let this get to me and, you know, something like that. And I think a lot of this journey has been unlearning those kinds of mindsets.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think the worth piece is so all-encompassing right?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: I think we tie our worth to so many things and to say that it's bad, right? I really shy away from like, labeling things as bad, but it's costly, I guess.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And I think once we're able to test almost our worthiness after removing those external metrics.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Dr. Jenny Wang: It feels very vulnerable and raw, right? You feel naked because in a way those external metrics have been the protection of that worth, it keeps it propped up.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And then you start to remove like the achievement and the fame, the money, all those things. And then you start to sit with the discomfort of like - So what am I really?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And I think once we can tolerate that discomfort, we start to realize: Oh, I'm somebody who is honest and kind and loving and amazing. And I think that to me is the journey of therapy. Is removing all those outer layers so that you can truly see who you are. And it's powerful.
Vanessa Shiliwala: It is powerful. I think that is something that I've had to learn, especially as I transitioned into being a parent. Because there's a rebirth of, yes, there's a birth of your child, but there's a birth of yourself as a new person.
And then all the sudden you have to kind of look at face to face with a lot of those insecurities and unhealed trauma and things that you're like - Well, wait a second, I don't want to necessarily pass this on to my kids. And, well that means I have to really get on its level and look at it from a couple different angles and think about well, where does it live?
What does it look like? And why is it here? And what can I say to it from a place of compassion rather than judgment. And that part was really hard for me cause I had a lot of judgment and negative voices telling myself like: Because this is here, you are unworthy. So it was a lot of unpacking that and I found that you're right.
It is this like naked vulnerability that is so scary and terrible. And a lot of us will do anything to avoid it. But then when you get in there and you breathe for a few seconds, you're like, this is not so bad. And yes, I am a lot of these amazing things. There are incredible qualities about me that aren't marked in, you know, titles or salary or awards or any validations from others.
And I think what really appeals to me about mindset and mental health journeys, is that realizing that we don't necessarily need all of the things that we were conditioned to think we need. So I do appreciate that perspective that you bring there. What did you learn in the process of writing a book?
And I know it's been quite a journey for you and how has it felt to meet with the people whose lives you've personally touched or go on Good Morning America? All of these different degrees of connection and then also processing?
Dr. Jenny Wang: I would say that the journey was perhaps harder than I anticipated. You know, I think the idea of writing, what I've done academic writing in that type of writing my whole life.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jenny Wang: But this kind of writing where it's intimate and it's close and revealing, that was a space that took a long time for me to move into.
And thankfully my editor and publisher were, they were great at helping kind of provide the scaffolding to get there. But it didn't come naturally, honestly. And I'm in the field of mental health where it feels like going there should come naturally.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: But I think that is just such a great example of how we are so great at offering space for other people to be vulnerable. But it's so hard to do that for ourselves.
Vanessa Shiliwala: A hundred percent
Dr. Jenny Wang: and so I think writing the book, I had to hold onto some type of grounding thought, right? Because I would swing between, like - I got this, it'll be fine to like - Oh my gosh, I'm terrified. And everybody's gonna hate the book and I don't know what to do with this.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I know, yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And I think like, there was so much of practicing, how to exist in that uncertain space?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Which I think is really hard being a child of immigrants. Because we're so kind of modeled to think about life in terms of structure and certainty,
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes
Dr. Jenny Wang: Right
Like get the degree, get the job, get married, have the kids, da, da, da, da,
everything is so structured. And
we're taught that happiness,
contentment, whatever -
lies at the end of that,
very structured
path.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And so
I think I couldn't sit with the uncertainty of waiting for the book
even
to come out
and it being in the hands of people,
because my mind would always wander to the most negative, harsh, critical space.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: That this book
would not be helpful that this book would be, it
would fall flat. It would not be helpful to the community that I hoped and longed to help. And I had to like train my brain to come back to the
like
open space of
like -
But what if it could be helpful? What if it was powerful? What if it was meaningful? And
it
had value.
And that itself was really hard. It was almost like writing the book was a certain level of heart, but then waiting for it to come out and then waiting to see the feedback. That was a whole different level of heart.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah, I can imagine.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And so I think that once the book came out and once people started reading it. And then I went on my book tour and started meeting people. I think I was just overwhelmed with the vulnerability that came from receiving from other people. Which is also a really hard space to live in when you've lived your whole life being like the helper, the doer, the problem solver.
To now being the one that receives kindness and love and compassion and understanding. And to receive it in a way where it felt like - I haven't done anything like, yeah I wrote the book, but I didn't really do anything where it felt like I had earned that kindness or earned that love. And at first it made me very uncomfortable.
I could not sit with sometimes the positive feedback and it made me feel like - But, but wait, right? Like there's something that you don't realize yet about the book that you're gonna be like - Oh, I don't like it, right? It was almost like waiting for the shoe to drop.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And again, that's a very common struggle for our community. So I think it took a while to move into a space of trusting the goodness, trusting the generosity of people's words and affirmations and encouragement. But I needed to go through that path. because I think that helped me link into community in a way that I had never really experienced before.
And that was really humbling for me. Because I think it helped me realize that it's all of this is two directional and it's circular versus a one-directional relationship where you offer something and you say - Okay, my work is done. No, it's actually, you offer something and some people give something in return and it's this refreshing kind of process.
And that has been so cool. You know, my favorite moment is when people bring parents to my book events and I'm like, this is the magic, this is what I did this for, right?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: It's like, the parents are like - I'm reading this book with my child. And often they're adult children they're in college or they're um, in their early adulthood and I'm just like - Oh, this is what this is about. So that has been the journey so far. And I'm curious to see how it'll evolve over time.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Wow. Well, congratulations again. I do think that, of course the praise and the love and the inclusion is so much more deserved than I think you can even imagine. And I think I also can relate that it is hard for me to receive compliments, feedback.
I'm actually find myself more uncomfortable with positive feedback sometimes than negative feedback. And I think a lot to your point, a lot of it has to do with being raised as children of immigrants and having that mentality like - Yeah, I did a good job, but what can I do better? Just always knowing how to excel, push the envelope. And really measure our value in our productivity and ability to go beyond even the standard that's been laid out for us.
And to your point, like waiting for the other shoe to drop like - Oh, but they're gonna reject me because of this. Oh, but I'm still not gonna be good enough because of this. And so, I think we're quite frankly, I'm still really dealing with a lot of how to heal that and how to move through that whole journey. Because it is hard, it's hard to deprogram and I've tried to really affirm my children and try to kind of give them the love in that way that I may not have received as a child because of that awareness.
And of course, like I'm not perfect. And sometimes I slip up and then even like asking them for forgiveness, when that happens has been something that like I've struggled with. But I knew in that moment it was the right thing to do because it was really hard. And I was like - Okay, this is really hard and I could see how it changed them.
And they'll now actually even say like - I forgive you, mommy. like, if I don't even prompt them sometimes. And like, for me the freedom to forgive myself has been really liberating because I didn't offer that to myself for a really long time, because I was very hard on myself.
And I think we see that being hard on ourselves helps us get to a certain point in life. And then there's this point where like, usually there's like a fallout or there's like a burnout, or there's an event that kind of like really kind of turns our life upside down. And, um, yeah, I can definitely empathize with that.
And I think the fact that you are making such an impact on our community, including generationally, is so beautiful. And again we're so grateful for this thing that you've cracked open that we weren't really, we didn't see it being talked about. So personally, I'm very grateful for that.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Thank you.
Vanessa Shiliwala: So we know it's been an unprecedented and somewhat traumatic time for many of us with a lot of recent news from mass shootings, hate crimes, and it feels like the overturning of human rights in many places in legislature. So for many of us, including myself, we suffer from vicarious trauma and feeling a whole range of emotions from numbness and fear, anger, rage, deep sadness, and despair.
And I remember after the mass shootings at Uvalde were so many young children died. I was just, I was so grief stricken. And I remember you did this video about completing the grief and trauma cycle. And I thought that was so spot on for that moment, because I was feeling very like, it was like a blocking force in my body.
I couldn't do anything. And so can you tell us a little bit more about that and how we can help our bodies and minds process trauma, even if it's vicarious? And how do you manage to find light and healing when the work and mental health can feel a bit heavy at times?
Dr. Jenny Wang: Yeah, I think like Western medicine has done a very good job of compartmentalizing mental and physical, but the body doesn't make that distinction, right? And so like every time you have a stressor and it could be a positive stressor, like you're getting married. And you're doing all the planning or could be a negative stressor like, you know, someone you love becomes ill.
Your mind registers that experience and all those perceptions and starts to then create pathways in the body where that stress now is manifesting. So your stress hormones get pumped into your body. You know, cortisol levels go up, Adrenal Glands start to kind of move. And so things, even on a metabolic level, right?
Hormones, blood supply, all of those things are changing. And what should happen is that we should then start to utilize that metabolic influx of all of those hormones. All of the metabolism that's happening to now do something, to act, to run from the tiger, right?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jenny Wang: In those early like primitive days, but modern man, the way we structure our lives now ...we don't do anything. In fact, we sometimes become even less engaged where we disconnect through, you know, Netflix, which I love watching Netflix too. But it's a then disconnection from mind and body even further. Cause instead of paying attention to the fact that my muscles are super tense and my heart rate is much higher than it usually is, due to these stressors.
I actually turn off that part of awareness in my body and brain and I watch something to distract myself. Because attending to what's in my body and happening in that moment is so overwhelming and stressful that I now disconnect from that bodily knowledge and experience. So it's not to say that in the short term, that's bad because in the short term, addressing stress sometimes is avoidance.
It is a, I feel stressed at work, but I can't rant and rage at work. So I have to kind of hold that back. I have to shut it down. But the question is, what do you do when you do have space to process? Do you allow your body and mind to move into that processing or do you continue to hold back and suppress?
And that's what becomes problematic or potentially dangerous to the body and mind. So then the question is, what can you tangibly do then? Because your body is now activated and you can feel it, you know, sometimes your appetite gets disrupted, your sleep is disrupted, your libido is disrupted, right?
All of those conditions are intimately related to that autonomic nervous system that now has been turned on. It says the world is not safe. I don't feel safe here. And so I think that we need to move the body towards places of safety, psychologically and then physically. And so that's why in a lot of indigenous cultures, a lot of ancestral healing cultures, there's movement, there's humming there's communal dancing, there's communal mourning.
We are allowing the body to move through those stages of anger and rage and grief and sadness all in a kind of communal way. But we've been in the midst of pandemic.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: People feel more alone than they have ever been. And so that communal response is not happening and people are also not accustomed to this idea that we need to actively process that stress.
Daily every other day, right? And so for some people it's exercise. And I would say that might be one of the most efficient. I'm not saying necessarily effective, but one of the most efficient ways where you go out, there you go for that run or you row, or you take your high intensity workout class or you do yoga.
And that is a way in which the body says - Okay, let's use up all of that stress hormone, that's stored up in my body. And if you imagine like a coil, that's been wound tight and now it's waiting for that moment of release. That's what exercise or movement can do. But for other people, it could be through the creative spaces.
Dance, art, music right? Things in which it turns on that almost flow state that we talk about in psychology. And that also allows the body to release from that wound up tense condition. So those are some ways that I often, you know, recommend people and sometimes it can't, it doesn't have to be this complex hour long thing.
It could just be going for a 10 minute walk around the block.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. Those are the best.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Right? Where you're just letting the body move. Or you're just letting yourself doodle. Or you're just letting yourself journal or you're intentionally doing some type of activity where you are fully present.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: When we think about trauma, I always kind of say it's this felt sense that I'm not safe. And when we think about the conditions of safety for humans, community and connection is one of the most powerful ways that we feel safe. So another space that I recommend people kind of looking into is when do you feel connected with other human beings in a way where you're not acting, you're not performing, you're not code switching. You are simply able to just be. And it's kind of like that village effect, right? When you feel like you're part of that village, then even if there's a natural disaster, even if there's some type of horrible event in this world, you have a felt sense that I can get through this because I have these people who have my back.
And I give this example, you know, we went through Harvey here in Houston in 2017 and it devastated many parts of Houston. We had friends who literally lived two minutes from us who flooded and lost much of their livelihood. We lost power for days, we couldn't cross freeway to get to grocery stores. I mean, it was one of those situations where you're just like, this feels like end of days kind of moments, right?
And what was so powerful in those times was people said - Hey, I have flour and sugar. Do you have eggs? Let's make cookies. And our kids are gonna give out cookies throughout the neighborhood. People would say - Hey, I don't have power, but I have a mini generator. Come over and charge your phones, charge your laptops. So you could still do some minimal work or whatever you needed to do.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: It was the community at the time that uplifted our spirits because we didn't know how long we were gonna be sitting in this situation. And I think that is what gives me hope. Even right now when it feels like, I mean, I live in Texas, so it just feels like it's a hot mess.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: That gives me hope to see that people are committed to still organizing. Committed to still touching the spaces where they have impact locally and doing the work regardless of the noise, because we will move towards moments of despair. That's natural. We will move towards times of burnout. That's expected when we've been in this prolonged grief.
I'm not concerned that we move to those spaces. I'm more concerned about whether or not people know the way back home to places of hope, of connection, of being able to feel like we have an impact.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And so it can feel like we actually travel to despair and hope all within minutes, hours, or days and weeks. But guess what? The more we travel between those spaces, the more efficiently and the more, well we know how to get back. It's the coming back to hope that I want people to know how to do. It's not about the avoidance of despair.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes. I love that visual because I think there is a lot of fear and avoidance of going to despair and than reframing it as this well traveled road that you're like - Oh yeah, I know this route. Like, I know where the pit stops are, I know where the scenic parts are and I've been here before. That becomes home. That's what's really powerful about that because rather than fearing, this is the despair side of the path.
It's like - Okay, well I know my way back and I'm gonna go back again, but that's okay. It's a very well traveled road and that I think gives us some comfort in the fact that we have spent a lot of time in that other side of the spectrum.
Hey everyone, we're going to take a quick break and return after this brief message. We all know how important mental health is, but it can be hard to know where to start or how to create a mental health practice that works for you.
Mental health affects us in the workplace at home and everywhere in between. From pandemic stress, employee burnout, hate crimes, mass shootings, and the daily struggle to balance work and family life.
The mental load of being human has never felt more crushing, especially for underrepresented identities. The struggle has been real for our community, from the rise in anti-Asian hate crimes, to underrepresentation everywhere from the boardroom to Hollywood, we've all had to navigate systemic, social and cultural barriers. Asian Americans are more prone to mental health issues and are three times less likely to seek help than their Caucasian counterparts. That's why I created Thrive Spice Media, a mental health podcast and platform.
My mission is to normalize mental health journeys, provide a safe space to share resources and stories and promote a more inclusive world that centers intersectional communities, including women of color, AAPI and LGBTQ+ communities. Lately I've been getting some requests from companies, especially ERG groups that focus on affinity groups like AAPIs, BIPOC and Queer communities, for speaking engagements and mental health workshops.
I'm thrilled to share that I'm now offering mental health masterclass workshops for corporations and groups. It's a 60 to 90 minute interactive mental health workshop hosted by me either virtually or in person.
It's specifically customized your organization's needs. We give participants a mental health toolkit to manage things like stress, anxiety, depression, and talk about how topics like racial trauma, imposter syndrome, negative self talk, social media, burnout, and more impact your mental health. The mental health toolkit includes data, exercises, resources, and practical frameworks to create and implement a mental wellness routine.
And I also include a Q and A session. 100% of previous attendees said they would recommend the event and podcast to a friend and said they left feeling empowered, validated, and informed. If this sounds like something you or your organization could benefit from, or you're curious about learning more, please go to www.thrivespicemedia.com for more information. Back to our conversation.
To your point, I really agree that community and connection is something that, um, sometimes is it's hard for the outside world to quantify, but it's really felt. It's very much felt.
And the ripple effect is real in the way that we see people organizing and uplifting and sharing and opening themselves up to connecting with people they may not have thought of in the past. And I really think that also, segues really well into a theme in your book about the permission to rest, the permission to play, the permission to fail.
All of these things that, you know, we weren't necessarily given the freedom to do necessarily. And I'm also very much like a productivity and like busyness, like recovering person from that whole construct. And so, I know it's a topic you've visited several times in your social media and in your book in terms of untying that to our worth.
But I would love to be able to unpack this, especially as child of immigrants and a mom of two toddlers, because life can truly feel 24/7 and burnout can lead to a lot of like rage and resentment in our personal relationships. And so how do you think we can unlock that compassion and freedom for ourselves to allow ourselves permission to not be productive and necessarily in the traditional sense to rest, fail, play, and experience joy?
Dr. Jenny Wang: I think the world that we live in now, incentivizes all aspects of productivity and busyness, right? Like we've made it such that you could literally not step away from work.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes.
Dr. Jenny Wang: For all minutes of your day, right?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Absolutely.
Dr. Jenny Wang: You have your phone, you have your watch and it's pinging you and it's texting you all of these things. And so we've made it very clear that the structure of our world is set up such that you're not allowed to step away.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jenny Wang: You are seen as this critical piece to this machine that is running. And I'm not to, I'm not saying that to diminish our importance or impact in this world, but I'm saying that that sense of urgency is fabricated.
And I always make this distinction with clients that urgent is your water heater has exploded in your kitchen and there's water flooding your house. That's urgent. But important is different in quality. It often is not urgent. It is something that you are keeping at the top of your priority list so that you are able to make sure you know, that there's a long term vision.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: You have set for yourself, right? And so the current busyness is an addiction to urgency. I'm busy because I feel like every email needs to be answered within 5 - 10 minutes. Or can't stand to sit there in the inbox for the day or even the next day, right?
Yeah.
Or urgency gives us a sense that I can't rest. I'll rest when I'm dead. There's no time for that. And then that creates a sense that none of our true inner needs are ever being met. And like, you know, as a mom, you know how it is, you make your meal, everybody has a plate, everybody's starting to eat and you're still standing there tidying at the kitchen.
And urgency of even having to tidy up while your family's finally sitting together having a meal and you don't even have a plate. There is a sense of urgency busyness productivity, bypassing the human need to just exist, to relish, to taste and delight in what life has to offer.
And I think that in order to do that, it has to be top of mind for us to create space for. And I'm the worst at that? My therapist will say - When are you ever going to not book things back to back to back? Right. Cause I'm all about efficiency. So I'm like - Well naturally, you book it back to back.
And as a mom, you're like racing for the pickup times. Let me squeeze everything in before I pick up kids. And that urgency then, because even if it's not urgent, you structured it such that you're running through the day at a sprint. And so like, you know, for the month of July, I'm like - This is my month. I'm slowing things down.
And it's, it took a while for my mind to register that this was rest time and I was still trying to like rest, to plan for the future. I'm gonna take this time to rest, but actually strategically plan what's next, right?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And it's taken in the month of July is almost over and it's finally taken to this point where I'm like, I'm actually gonna do what feels good from my body.
What feels good for my soul. And those are none of the things on my checklist. And what's beautiful about this is that, that early stage of slowing down triggers so much discomfort anxiety, that most of us propel ourselves out of it.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Like we're like, I'm not done.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. This didn't work.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Everything that Jenny said in the book doesn't apply, right? It didn't work. But if we're able to break through that initial period of time, then the body starts to say - Oh, I can do this.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And actually this feels so good. And then the anxiety starts to fall away because you realize that the world doesn't fall apart when you're not living in urgency.
You're like - Oh, everything's okay. We're still here.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: The kids are still happy and fed and doing their thing. And your work email is still there. But nobody's sending you these nasty emails saying you didn't respond in 24 hours. You actually realize that, that slower pace is possible.
And that is the gift. And you might realize you're sleeping better and you see your world more clearly. And you're thinking with so much more creativity and innovation, that is a byproduct, not the purpose of rest. And once you move into that next season or phase, that's when your worth says - I'm still here and standing and valuable and worthy.
And none of that busyness productivity is present here. And so I think it has to be a dedicated practice and I'm guilty of this all the time, because I go through seasons where my life is just busy. And then I say - Oh, I'm done. I can't be that way anymore. And so I kind of see myself as like, if there's like a stream, and that stream is replenishment and that stream is rejuvenation. I move in and out of that stream. I don't expect myself to have to be in the stream all the time because that isn't actually necessarily energizing enough for me to do the intensive work, that sometimes my life required.
But I can dip into the stream and walk out and do my work and then come back and spend longer times in it, bathing in it, relishing in it. And then have times where I just come by and take a sip and then go back. And so the question is, are you attuned to yourself enough to know when you need to float in it? Like you're floating down the river for a season or that you have enough capacity to just come for that drink and then move back.
And I think that that releases us from having to feel like I have to always be balanced all the time.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: I don't think that's possible as a mother.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Certainly it is not.
Dr. Jenny Wang: I'm a working person, right?
Vanessa Shiliwala: No It's not. I think the important distinction too, is that it's this luxury that we always have available. And I think if we don't realize that we can kind of operate out of this scarcity mindset, like I don't deserve to have that or it's not available to me. And then realizing that we can take sips or relish in it and really bathe and savor that time. And it doesn't have to be this way or that way.
It's always available to us. That's something that, I think it was a shift for me as a mom, because I saw what was modeled for me was just like working very hard. Not even trying to ask for anything for yourself as a parent. And I was like - Well, that's what I gotta do for my kids.
And it really took a toll on my own mental health. And it came out in my relationships where there was a lot of that anger and rage, and point that I really appreciated you brought up in your book is that a lot of us have not even been allowed to feel anger. And I loved how you flipped that to anger can be a teacher.
It has a message for us. It can be productive. And so I felt that was really freeing, especially as an Asian woman, you know, you're just seen as like - Oh gosh, she's crazy. Like, you know, you're not allowed to be angry. And so I'm wondering, how has that shown up for you in terms of like, I guess wrestling with your anger or learning to love or feel compassion for your anger.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Mm, yeah. I think, if you think about like the identity of being an Asian woman and the caricature that comes to mind. And this idea that you're socialized to be proper, polite and nice and abiding, accommodating, helpful. None of those things leave room for - I am pissed.
And so what's really interesting is I've noticed that sometimes when I'm working with my female Asian American clients, there's a layer of anxiety that sits on top of anger. They're really anxious. And that's the first thing that you observe. But when you go deeper, you realize that there is a huge well of anger there.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Mm-hmm
Dr. Jenny Wang: But because society is more okay with a woman being anxious than angry. The anxiety is what sits at the surface and is tangible and even aware to that person . But when we dig deeper, we realize that, that anxiety is not really the true driving emotion. It's the anger there. And it's years of it.
It's not like I'm angry today. It's the, my resentment is as deep as like a cavern. And I think part of it is that, when anger doesn't get expressed, it just gets funneled into these deep dark places. And I think that explosive reactive response that we fear with anger, that is when those kind of wires are tripped in those deep dark spaces.
And then it just shoots out of us. And then people say - Oh, she's crazy, cause she went from zero to a hundred. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. She has been at a hundred under the surface this whole time. But she's been holding it together for you and for the kids and for the partner and for everyone else.
So then I'm a huge fan of, can you create spaces for your anger to fully exist. And that might be journaling, or that might be venting to a friend or talking to your therapist or whatever. But when you're aware of your anger, then you can do something about it. But if you're not aware, then that means that you're gonna keep living your life in the status quo.
And the status quo is riddled with things that piss you off every single minute of the day. But every time you get pissed off, you just add it to that deep dark cavern. And it fuels that rage and that rage, in my opinion, doesn't just affect mental health. But your physical health is activated in that.
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And, and it causes in my opinion, and I think there's some early research on inflammation. And all of those kind of long term chronic illness effects. And so I think it's hard to unlearn. And yet I think that we can recognize that the experience of our anger and rage is really different from the expression of it.
So I can be angry, I can own it and all of that. But I can also learn how to express it effectively. And I think that's the link that we're never taught. So because we don't know how to express it, then we just ignore the anger. We can't allow ourselves to experience it. Cause if we experience it, then it diverts into expression and that's scary. That's overwhelming. That's disrespectful. So we just shut the whole pathway down.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Wow. That is so illuminating. And I love that as kind of a segue into our next question regarding Asian American men. Cause I think there is also some commonality in themes of anger and rage and we see that Asian men, although there's not necessarily like research showing that they're experiencing more mental health issues. But we also see that they're experiencing two to four times higher rates of suicide than women.
And so there's a lot of theories about that, but I'd love to hear your perspective on how have you observed this in your professional and your personal experience? And I know you shared a lot about this in your book as well. But how can we redefine what healthy masculinity looks like for Asian American men to empower them, to prioritize their mental health?
Dr. Jenny Wang: There's so many facets to this, which I think are some are linked to the cultural right aspects, but some are just societal in general, right? I think men in the way that society has structured it here in the United States, They're not encouraged to build community in the ways that women are.
So like you have your tribes or your village and that's vernacular that's used in really flow kind of, you know, easy flowing way for women. But like, I don't ever see memes about tribes for men or like no communities for men, right.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Dude tribes.
Dr. Jenny Wang: That's almost, yeah, exactly.
Maybe I think you should hashtag that I'll start a movement there, right? But like, and so I think men, and it breaks my heart to think about this, I think they're extremely isolated and lonely. And I think about like, for a lot of men, like, especially if they're single, I'm just like - When do they ever get physical contact or affection? That's not intimate or sexual in any way.
But that is like just connection with humans. That must be really hard. And as humans, we respond to touch, cause that makes us feel safe and connected. And if you're not partnered, then where are you getting that need from?
And even if you are partnered, you may not be getting that need.
Oh, sure. Yeah.
Because intimacy, sex, we don't have time for that, we're too tired, we're too exhausted. So I think a lot of times men are in these silos of their own world, their own experiences, their own struggles. And because of this idea that, you know, they're supposed to be strong, they're supposed to hold it together, they're supposed to kind of have everything under control.
Then it makes it so hard for them to reach out and to say - Hey, I'm lonely or, Hey, I feel so disconnected from everybody. And so I think I do wish we could create a movement for men where we create bridges for them to say - I'm struggling and I need a hug. And I need encouragement. I need words of affirmation. I need something from the community around me because they're so used to being the like the stoic foundation of strength yeah. They don't need anybody. Yeah. Yes. And so I think our community, especially within the Asian community, stoicism is almost like a value.
Vanessa Shiliwala: For sure.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Like it's something that we uphold and we say - This is good because this is a sign of good mental health.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: You can appear as though you are infallible, unshakeable. And I think that's doing our men, our community a disservice. So, you know, I think as women, we have a role here too, right?
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: We can invite the men in our lives into more intimate spaces and conversations, if they're ready for it. We can check in, we can create doors that allow them to walk through and normalize those doors, being there and accessible to them. But I think it's hard. And I think there are many mental health professionals who are Asian, who are men who are trying to open those doors and normalize those conversations.
But I think it will take time for people to buy into the new storylines around vulnerability, especially for men.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Of course. Yeah. Thank you for that really nuanced answer. I'm also appreciating that you brought in intimacy, sex, physical affection, it's something also very taboo in our community and something that was never talked about.
And so I think as adults, it's really hard to understand, what role does this play? And then even sometimes I feel like it also falls into the permission to play or permission to rest bucket where we're like - Well that's a luxury, I didn't earn it. And it's interesting how it does weave itself into that whole language.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Mm-hmm, yeah. And I do wanna make a note, as I said earlier, like I made it sound like if you're not partnered, then you're not getting those intimate or sexual needs met and that's not true. Cause there're people who are, you know, they have different orientations, some people are polygamous and that they have open relationships.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Right.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And that's okay too. I think it's just this idea that like, if you're not seeking those relationships out to fill that need, then it can be very isolating. So I definitely didn't want to make it seem like it had to be like, you know, like cisgender, heteronormative ways.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Of course.
Dr. Jenny Wang: In order for people to gain connection. Just wanna make that clear.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Of course.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Cause it sounded that way as I was thinking about it in my head after the fact.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Sure. No, I appreciate that. I didn't perceive it that way, but I couldn't understand and appreciate obviously here on the podcast. We are very empathic about being inclusive and understanding that there are norms that guide our society that we also have to consider, especially when it comes to our community, which can be already very intersectional in nature.
And there's a vast diaspora of what it means to be Asian American today. I'd like to, just kind of have a final question before we kind of go to, what I'd like to call the lightning round, where you just kind of get to know more about you and celebrate Asian joy.
So I know this is a bit of a tough topic, but I wanted to pivot to suicide prevention and suicide loss. We know that 988 has just rolled out for example. And there are some quite sobering statistics around suicide for Asian Americans and AAPIs. And I guess in your experience, what has worked in helping to support our community, especially gen Z or Asian Americans, AAPIs, especially in the 15 to 24 age group, which we know has the number one rate of suicide for Asian women. What do you see works? Or what do you envision for the future to help address this?
Dr. Jenny Wang: I think that, like in many ways, just opening up the dialogue around mental health at an early age is really important. I think for many people, myself included, mental health was never part of my upbringing or conversations.
And so, I think there are lots of really great programs where they're being pulled into the schools and they're getting counselors to teach about mental health and talk about emotional regulation, communication skills. Like if you think about it, mental health can be supported with adequate skill development.
The problem is that many of us, we never got those skills.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: So we're learning them in our twenties, thirties, forties. And so for that younger age group, probably what does it look like for teachers to be aware of warning signs, of things that might suggest a student is struggling and how do we intervene earlier?
And that age group, 15 to 24 means that they are still under the guardianship of their parents. So if you have parents who are don't believe in mental health, don't think it's real. Then what other ways can you seek out help? Cause parents often have to consent to treatment.
So it's an education of the parents, it's an education of teachers, which I think they're trying their hardest. I mean, being a teacher right now is one of the hardest things and hats off to all our teachers, I'm super grateful for them. But, you know, in many ways, how do we surround students with that village idea of not just parents, but teachers, mentors, coaches, tutors, whoever is making contact with our young adults.
How can we make sure that we are aware and we're noticing. Because you transition from like middle school, which was so hard into high school. And those critical years are ones in which these young adults are forming ideas about themselves and their identity. And so the question is, who is speaking into those identities, who is speaking into the lives of these kids?
And often it's peers. And peers can be the most harsh and critical. And so, one of those things that I think is important is, are we allowing these young folks to get linked into communities of support, be it, you know, what does it look like in their community organizations, sports teams, all of that good stuff.
So that they have that support all around them. And if, and when those mental health struggles arise, we can be aware and we can start getting them help early on. And also talking about mental health before it becomes mental struggle. We can talk about mental health prevention. We can talk about mental kind of "fitness or wellbeing".
That you can always be moving towards kind of, more balanced or healthy mental health, even before you struggle. And so can we equip young people with those skills as well versus now there's a problem and we have to address a problem. So yeah, I think there are so many organizations that are doing amazing work to promote that awareness and supporting young people.
But I think especially as a parent, nothing replaces an attuned relationship with our kids. And you being present in a young adult's life, will have an immeasurable impact on them.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. So much resonance with that, I feel like it does take a community to go along for the ride. And yeah, I think that with the younger people it is so important to have that safe space that you offer as a parent. And it's really my hope that we are able to, as a community, as a society really work on that prevention side. And I think when I first started this podcast actually, I remember meeting with a mentor in the community.
He was like a bit more senior than me. And he was saying - Oh, do you mean like Alzheimer's or these kinds of things with mental health? And I was like - Oh boy, like we are, we're not on the same plane. But that also taught me like - Okay, there is actually a long ways to go. This actually validates that there's a lot of work to do in this space.
And so that was something that, I can look back on now and just kind of like, laugh a little bit about and think like - Okay, well that's actually a good sign. That means that, there is a need for preventative mental health measures. But I'd love to pivot and spend some time on a few quick questions. What's your Thrive Spice or daily habit or ritual that brings you joy, levity, or peace?
Dr. Jenny Wang: What is something I do daily. I mean, I have to admit my skincare brings me a lot of like, pause, like
Vanessa Shiliwala: I used to work in skincare, so I completely understand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That self care. It's important.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Yeah. If is soothing on a physical tactile level and it causes or it creates moment for pause, which I, so it is the one of those things I do daily. Cause you know, I run, but I don't run daily.
And so I'm trying to think like, that might be a pause moment for me that just creates that necessary space to be like - I deserve to be nourished and I'm being nourished through the things that I'm kind of putting on my face in a very intentional way. And it just feels good. So I would say maybe that the skincare would be my daily habit.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Do you have like a favorite product or, or you know, device or tool?
Dr. Jenny Wang: You know, I use like a variety of different products. I don't use tools just yet, but - Hey, I'm getting older. I might moving that.
Vanessa Shiliwala: You still look great.
Dr. Jenny Wang: But you know, I'm a huge believer of like just having SPF. And you're good, you know, vitamin C.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: That smells good. That's the thing that like brightens up my morning.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh, I love it. I love it. That's great. I think like, as a mom, I kind of let that routine slide and I was like - Oh, it's not important. But then I noticed like adding little small bits of rituals back into my day was like, oh, this actually does feel good. I think it has some psychological benefits too. So, I love that. What's your favorite Taiwanese food or snack from childhood?
Dr. Jenny Wang: Oh gosh, there are so many. I would say I really love Yu Bung or You Fan.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Okay.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Which is that glutinous rice and sticky rice dish.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And then, man.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Savory or sweet?
Dr. Jenny Wang: Um, the sticky rice? I like it savory with the mushrooms.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Pork and yes. And then I really love like Grass Jelly or Herbal Jelly. So those two things come to mind. And of course, like just all the fruit in Taiwan that you cannot get here.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes.
Dr. Jenny Wang: That is money.
Vanessa Shiliwala: So that's the best part. Yeah. I know. I always get hungry at this portion of the podcast.
Um, but yeah, I miss a lot of that and I think when you were talking about the third space, I really related to that because some of it's actually the food and the cuisine and the night markets and the beef noodle soup and the snacks and everything. And so I haven't actually been back to Taiwan since before I got married. So my kids have never been and it's like, it's occupying a sense of like loss in my body.
And I'm like, when that 10 - 14 day quarantine ends maybe I can take them. But also 24 hours on a plane with a two and four year old, I'm also a little scared of so.
Dr. Jenny Wang: It's rough. Not gonna lie. I did it when my son was 18 months and my daughter was five.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh my gosh.
Dr. Jenny Wang: It was semi traumatic, partially while haven't gone back in a long time and pandemic. But it is magical. I mean, my daughter, when we went back was like - There's a whole country filled with people who look like us?
Vanessa Shiliwala: I know, right?
Dr. Jenny Wang: And so it just does something for identity development. That is so powerful. So I can't wait for you to take your kids.
Vanessa Shiliwala: I know me too. I'm like - When can we go? But I'm hoping we're closer.
I feel like once we get past the terrible two's, like potty training phase, like maybe we can dip our toes. But yeah.
Who's your favorite Asian or AAPI celebrity or role model?
Dr. Jenny Wang: That's a good question. I don't know. I don't really like follow celebrities often.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: So, um, Hmm.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Or who would you wanna have dinner with or I don't know, something like that.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Who would I wanna have dinner with? Well, I think, it would be one of those like old school, like Asian American female activists.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Oh yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Right? Yuri Kochiyama or like, Grace Lee Boggs like just one of those women who were, I mean, they were just fearless.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And I think that would be my answer.
Vanessa Shiliwala: That would be really cool. I love that answer. What was the last moment that brought you joy?
Dr. Jenny Wang: I feel like there's so many cause I'm like able to slow down and notice them. I think it was taking my kids to Disneyland.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Ooh.
Dr. Jenny Wang: And that feels like kind of silly to say, but like I think this was the first time where we went and like everybody could ride the rides and like everybody that's a big one, really, you know? And so I think like my kids getting off and just being like - That was awesome! And like, that brought me a lot of joy just to see their thrill and like, for them to experience something that was so new.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yes. That's such a gift is seeing the world through our kids' eyes. And like, it's like the simple pleasures, although I'm sure taking your kids to Disneyland is not a simple endeavor. So I applaud you for that.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Yes, but worth it, worth it.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Yeah. Okay. Good to know. Good to know. I haven't worked up the courage yet. I'm like, I don't know.
I don't know. First let's survive a plane ride and then we'll try Disney World. But yes, thank you again for the wisdom and the love and the thoughtfulness that you bring to our community. It means so much, I'm sure you've touched many, many lives and continue to do so. So thank you again for your generosity and your grace.
It really is inspiring to see you model a lot of that vulnerability and, and power in that. Um, so thank you again for, for joining us here today.
Dr. Jenny Wang: Thank you so much for having me and for holding space so well and so gently. Thank you.
Vanessa Shiliwala: Of course. Thank you.
Thank you so much for joining us here today on Thrive Spice. If listening to our podcast helps you feel seen or heard, or you find yourself saying yes, while you're listening to one of our podcast episodes, or you simply believe in our mission of breaking down the cultural and social stigmas that prevent Asian Americans from reaching their true potential when it comes to mental health, family, life, and business, please leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, consider booking a Thrive Spice Mental Health Masterclass workshop, or share a link to our podcast with a friend or family member who might benefit from being a part of our Thrive Spice community.
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